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Projecting and Pre-Hung gear
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By danpierce
From Cleveland, OH
Feb 2, 2009
Topping out

I briefly scanned the sport climbing forum to see if this topic was already established and couldnt find an exact replica. So here goes..

I struggle with the pros and cons of projecting climbs and pre-set draws. I was wondering if i could get some feedback from those out there with an opinion. I always found that needing to hang the draws as I climbed added to the difficulty and essence of a climb. There have been climbs that the only time I have sent was when I already had the draws placed. This makes me wonder if I truly accomplished the grade of the climb. ie. Climbing an 11c, should it only be given a grade of 11a with the draws pre-hung??

And then you throw in the climbs with fixed draws. Were the grades originally established with the FA knowing the draws would be fixed?

Would this then mean guidebooks have to publish a no-draw grade followed by a pre-hung draw grade??

Add another tier, if you stick clip the first bolt... Now we have more crazy considerations.

Maybe I am getting ahead of myself... What line can be drawn to maintain the intent of the grade in comparison to the FA?? Insert opinions.

I really want to try and avoid this being a discussion of theft of stolen gear left on a climb. It might have been the motivation behind my thought process but please, resist the temptation


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By Aaron Martinuzzi
Feb 3, 2009
end of the day in the black canyon.

danpierce wrote:
This makes me wonder if I truly accomplished the grade of the climb. ie. Climbing an 11c, should it only be given a grade of 11a with the draws pre-hung??


like John said, the consensus is that a send is a send even if the draws are pre-hung. i do agree that it takes an aspect of difficulty out of the climb - not having to pull the draw off your harness and clip the bolt is one less thing to have to do while you bear down on some painful crimp, but this doesn't change the moves you have to do to climb the route. even with pre-hung draws, in most cases you still have to attain roughly the same stance to clip the 'biner.

in short, i don't think this requires referring to an 11c 'pinkpoint' as equivalent to an 11a send, and in an ideal world, where climbs are rated based on the single hardest move, there shouldn't need to be any grade distinction re: pre-hung draws. it is a little less bad-ass, though. if you were a REAL hardman you'd have hung your own draws on that 14c...


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By Joseph Stover
From Batesville, AR
Feb 3, 2009

I still record them as pinkpoints, but it's enough to satisfy me. I sometimes don't differentiate between a flash and an onsight though, for say small bits of guidebook data and discussing the climb with friends before going up. Although I would differentiate on the basis of having beta yelled while on route, or specific information on techniques to solve the crux.

Sometimes a "green point" is enough to satisfy me, has anyone else ever heard that for a clean toprope? Hell I find finishing stuff with a hangdog really satisfying as well! I sometimes find topropes more satisfying if you dont have to fiddle with the rope or gear, and sometimes scarier too.

Of course as has been stated many times on this site: It's a matter of what you set as your goal.


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By KENtucky
From Richmond, Ky
Feb 3, 2009
FAIL <br />

John Langston wrote:
Regardless of your feelings or even the FA's feelings, the overwhelming thought is that sending a sport route with pre-hung draws is still a redpoint. This hasn't always been the case and I don't even know if I agree with it. Doesn't change that for sport, pink=red. Certainly you have to place all your gear on lead for trad but you already knew that. There are a lot of bolts that are just out of the way for clipping easily. No doubt this makes the prehung ascent easier. I'd venture to say that no 5.14a or higher has ever been sent sans-prehung. If that makes you feel any better about it.

Pre-hung = Pinkpoint oh master of stone!


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By Dusty
From Fort Collins
Feb 3, 2009
just teasin' the sharks...

Aaron Martinuzzi wrote:
in an ideal world, where climbs are rated based on the single hardest move


This would be an idiotic way to grade climbs.


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By SAL
From broomdigiddy
Feb 3, 2009
good times. <br />

ilclimberken wrote:
Pre-hung = Pinkpoint oh master of stone!



Where in the heck did this guy come from???




So lets all call Sharma to make sure he knows his "pinkpoint" of Jumbo Love is just pink. He better get back to work clipping all 80 meters of that stone or else he is hosed.
Its funny how I only hear the term pink point used for people clipping and ticking grades far below even 5.13
Strange...


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By John Bradbury
Feb 3, 2009
apollo

Personally, I wouldn't consider hanging draws on anything under a 12+/13-. But would and do count redpoints with hung draws.

There are also trad lines with fixed gear. Sometimes because the stance is to crappy to get something in. Sometimes because the previous guy didn't know how to read the size and got something stuck :) Is using a piece of fixed gear cheating too? Did all those Nose accents not count?..lol.

Wouldn't it also depend on the local ethics of said climb? Pre hung at the RRG for instance is acceptable, for FA's and the like. They also stick clip the first bolt...shhh.


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By danpierce
From Cleveland, OH
Feb 3, 2009
Topping out

Thanks for the insight. I tend to agree that a send is a send. pre-hung or sans-pre-hung. I just didnt know if those thoughts were my selfish desires to be more of a send machine. Thanks for the confirmation!

Bradbury, good point about local ethics. I can see how that does play a role. Gotta love the RRG.


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By Monomaniac
Administrator
From Morrison, CO
Feb 3, 2009
Insurrection, 5.14c.  Photo Adam Sanders.

The "hanging draws is more valid cause its harder" argument is arbitrary. Hanging a watermelon from your harness would also make it harder. Using one-hand would make it harder. Are these styles "better"?

I think it comes down to what you like to get out of climbing. For some people (sport climbers), its about the movement & physical strength required to climb the rock. Almost any tactic that doesn't invalidate this goal is acceptable. For others (trad climbers) its about the physical aspect, plus overcoming the unknown by approaching the obstacle in a self-contained, GROUND-UP fashion (sidenote: people often confuse "trad vs. sport" as an argument about natural gear vs. bolts when its really about ground-up vs. top-down--see "headpointing").

If all you care about is putting the strength & technique together to make a free ascent, then all the other "style" crap won't matter; anything equal to or harder than a toprope ascent would be acceptable. On the other hand, if "style" is important to you, you would need to place the bolts from free stances during your onsight send in order to claim any stylistic high-ground.

Anything in between these two styles is an arbitrary shade of gray.


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By Dusty
From Fort Collins
Feb 3, 2009
just teasin' the sharks...

Monomaniac wrote:
(sidenote: people often confuse "trad vs. sport" as an argument about natural gear vs. bolts when its really about ground-up vs. top-down--see "headpointing").


Can you clarify what you mean here? Surely you don't mean to say that headpointing is sport climbing?


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By Monomaniac
Administrator
From Morrison, CO
Feb 3, 2009
Insurrection, 5.14c.  Photo Adam Sanders.

John Langston wrote:
Last summer I...


Cool story Hansel. :)

That's an interesting situation. I guess I look at that sort of thing from an "Objective Hazard" point of view. In other words, there are many factors on a climb that you can't control: The temperature, Humidity, wetness, rock breakage, if some fool couldn;t clean their nuts. Sometimes these factors are in your favor, some times they aren't. For all you know, the nuts were clogging up bomber finger locks that would have made the climb easier.

If you rapped down the route & fixed the nuts yourself, that would be uber-lame. But you had nothing to do with it, it was just dumb luck. You approached it from the ground and sent it as you found it. That's the best you can do.

Fortunately as a Sport Climber I don;t have to stress over these things. If I see draws fixed on a route I'm about to try? Booya Baby! Less work for me...


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By Monomaniac
Administrator
From Morrison, CO
Feb 3, 2009
Insurrection, 5.14c.  Photo Adam Sanders.

Dusty Ross wrote:
Can you clarify what you mean here? Surely you don't mean to say that headpointing is sport climbing?


I mean to say it sure as hell ain't trad climbing. Its a gray area.

Once you set up that Top Rope, you've made your deal with the devil. You are no longer in the trad-zone.


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By Dusty
From Fort Collins
Feb 3, 2009
just teasin' the sharks...

So the question is this: Does traditional define the style of climbing or the style of protection? I think the term was originally meant to define the style of climbing. In modern climbing lingo, however, I feel the term is reserved for the style of protection. The same word may be interpreted differently in subsequent generations.


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By SAL
From broomdigiddy
Feb 3, 2009
good times. <br />

Monomaniac wrote:
I mean to say it sure as hell ain't trad climbing. Its a gray area. Once you set up that Top Rope, you've made your deal with the devil. You are no longer in the trad-zone.



and what would a sport climber know about it? :) :)


The redpoint burn is still going on lead and on gear. You may be associating this headpoint with hang dogging yoru way up thy bolts.
:)
Having done a sport route on top rope before leading it does not make it a top rope does it? Or a boulder problem? It is just taking the means to work the moves before commiting to the whip.

all of these examples of course veto the idea of a "ground up" ascent as well. Which would be a side deal with the devil. If you care about that sort of stuff.


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By eric larson
From aurora, co
Feb 3, 2009
suspender man

seems like worrying about all these technicalities takes the fun out of the climbing... and isn't that why we do it?


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By Dusty
From Fort Collins
Feb 3, 2009
just teasin' the sharks...

Some people like to understand the lingo that gets used in reference to their favorite past time.


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By SAL
From broomdigiddy
Feb 3, 2009
good times. <br />

eric larson wrote:
seems like worrying about all these technicalities takes the fun out of the climbing... and isn't that why we do it?



cool shot on suspender man. Did you stick clip or cheat around to the first bolt? Or did you charge it? Just curious on the technicallity :)
If you dont care. Dont read. I think there are some good questions and things to be clarified here between the young and the old.


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By Monomaniac
Administrator
From Morrison, CO
Feb 3, 2009
Insurrection, 5.14c.  Photo Adam Sanders.

eric larson wrote:
seems like worrying about all these technicalities takes the fun out of the climbing... and isn't that why we do it?


He He. I totally agree, and yet I waste an awful lot of energy worrying about it.

The reason I care, is because I don't care(?), and I see a lot of people beating their chests, saying "look how great my style is", and it annoys me. I'm a sport climber, and I'm not ashamed in any way. But a lot of folks around these parts like to criticize sport climbing tactics. Which is fine, its a (relatively since 2008) free country. What irritates me is when people do this, despite the fact that they are using sport-climbing tactics. If someone wants to get on their soapbox and talk down to the rest of us, fine, but it ought to be he who has not "sinned".

I'm still waiting for the sin-less wonder to show himself. I'm begging to suspect he doesn't exist.


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By Brad Brandewie
Feb 3, 2009
Maya's first trip to RMNP.

Among my friends, a red point means you hung the draws as you climbed.
If you climbed it on pre-placed draws, it is a pink point.

Not that any of this matters...
Brad


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By SAL
From broomdigiddy
Feb 3, 2009
good times. <br />

Monomaniac wrote:
He He. I totally agree, and yet I waste an awful lot of energy worrying about it. The reason I care, is because I don't care(?), and I see a lot of people beating their chests, saying "look how great my style is", and it annoys me. I'm a sport climber, and I'm not ashamed in any way. But a lot of folks around these parts like to criticize sport climbing tactics. Which is fine, its a (relatively since 2008) free country. What irritates me is when people do this, despite the fact that they are using sport-climbing tactics. If someone wants to get on their soapbox and talk down to the rest of us, fine, but it ought to be he who has not "sinned". I'm still waiting for the sin-less wonder to show himself. I'm begging to suspect he doesn't exist.



I dont see any chest beating or criticizm going on thus far. Seems like a normal climbing thread and style and tactics.
IMHO i think sport climbers have more core style codes and conduct then a trad. Most of them just dont give an F if they took a whipper or not. They are leading ground up on gear they placed themselves :)

How many threads do we see weekely on did i screw up by clipping the fixed nut? Not many. lots of threads on draws, redpoints, heheh stealing draws ( snickersnicker ) and so on. I have never seen a thread that said I had a fixed nut on the first pitch of the naked edge. Please return it. You are stealing. :) :)


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By SAL
From broomdigiddy
Feb 3, 2009
good times. <br />

Brad Brandewie wrote:
Among my friends, a red point means you hung the draws as you climbed. If you climbed it on pre-placed draws, it is a pink point. Not that any of this matters... Brad


Jumbo love is bogus!!! I knew it!


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By Brad Brandewie
Feb 3, 2009
Maya's first trip to RMNP.

SAL wrote:
Jumbo love is bogus!!! I knew it!


I don't get it?


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By SAL
From broomdigiddy
Feb 3, 2009
good times. <br />

Brad Brandewie wrote:
I don't get it?


The new 5.15b sharma did had about 80 meters of fixed draws and most everything at Clark. I am just confused as to why not one article,. report or athelete calls this a pink point but yes the rest of us mortals have such high standards on 5.12 that we actually veto a valid "redpoint" becuase there are fixed draws.
I don't get it as well :)


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By Monomaniac
Administrator
From Morrison, CO
Feb 3, 2009
Insurrection, 5.14c.  Photo Adam Sanders.

SAL wrote:
I dont see any chest beating or criticizm going on thus far. Seems like a normal climbing thread and style and tactics.


SAL, I totally agree. This is a great, level-headed discussion. My comment was not intended to apply only to this thread, or even to this web site.


SAL wrote:
IMHO i think sport climbers have more core style codes and conduct then a trad...How many threads do we see weekely on did i screw up by clipping the fixed nut?


Hehe Spend much time over on Super Taco? True, not on this website. But I think if you were to hang around the fire at Camp Four you would hear plenty of debates on trad ethics.


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By Adam Catalano
From Albany, New York
Feb 3, 2009
me

Am I happy with my send? Do I want to challenge myself further by placing draws myself? Who cares what you call your send. If you accomplished what you set out to do, that's all that matters. Very few of us are making money for sending things cleanly, ground up, onsight, etc.
Why judge someone on how they completed the route? If they are pleased with their send, be happy for them. Don't tell them, "Oh, but you stick clipped and used hanging draws. I've done it skipping every other draw, so I'm a hardman."


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By SAL
From broomdigiddy
Feb 3, 2009
good times. <br />

Monomaniac wrote:
SAL, I totally agree. This is a great, level-headed discussion. My comment was not intended to apply only to this thread, or even to this web site. Hehe Spend much time over on Super Taco? True, not on this website. But I think if you were to hang around the fire at Camp Four you would hear plenty of debates on trad ethics.



yeah this debate can be had for ever and ever. :)

Nope. Dont do the taco. Dont really do sites but this at all.


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