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By MTKirk
From Billings, MT
Jan 30, 2013
Me on Supercrack

wankel7 wrote:
In other news the war on drugs is going great! :(


Finally my loyal following of "The Wire" pays off.


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By Stephen Ackley
From Richmond, Virginia
Jan 30, 2013

Damn. I stand corrected on the location of all this. From the Mexican television news report, the bar is clearly outside of EPC and next to the climber's campgrounds.

All this hits close to home but I've still got to argue that with common sense this place is safe for a climber.

Its not like the narcos need the money from robbing a climber.

Common sense will keep you from getting mixed up with these folks.


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By bearbreeder
Jan 30, 2013

the problem with common sense is that it assumes both parties have it ...


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By JeremyB
Jan 30, 2013
Me warming up at LRC.

M Sprague wrote:
I'm not so sure of your statistical analyses there, Jeremy.


Oh yeah? Why not?


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By M Sprague
Administrator
From New England
Jan 30, 2013
Lichen head. Me, with my usual weatherbeaten, lichen covered look from scrubbing a new route.

Common sense vs. psychopaths

It is not like there are no good alternative areas, maybe a bit more expensive, but paying for a costlier plane ticket vs. that???

Maybe a good thread topic would be what some alternatives could be.


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By Curtis Tripp
From Moab, UT
Jan 30, 2013

JeremyB wrote:
Seriously, 33k people died last year in the USA as a result of traffic accidents and are you still driving? You are statistically more likely to die driving to the crag than visiting Mexico.

M Sprague wrote:
I'm not so sure of your statistical analyses there, Jeremy.


The rate of people who die in car accidents each year in the U.S. is about 15 deaths per 100,000 people(assumes that everyone in the U.S. rides in cars). This is under the general homicide rate in Mexico (23.7 per 100,000), but well over the murder rate of Americans in Mexico (2.1 per 100,000). According to these stats, as an American it is safer to travel to Mexico than to remain in the U.S. (homicide rate of 4.8 per 100,000).

www.lonelyplanet.com/blog/2012/04/30/are-americans-safer-in->>>

This is not to trivialize the violence in Mexico, it is a horrible plague for the Mexican people. It is just that, so far, this seems not to have translated to increased violence against Americans.

Edit to add: numbers are for 2011.


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By PatrickV
From Albuquerque, New Mexico
Jan 30, 2013
mexico

Murder rates: 4.8/100,000 people in the US and 22.7/100,000 people in Mexico in 2010.

www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/statistics/crime/H>>>

Pretty sure automobile deaths are higher as well. There is a war of sorts going on in Mexico, even if you haven't seen it on your one trip to Potrero. No use in denying it exists.

Edit to add:
Nice stat Curtis, but like most stats it probably doesn't say much. There are quite a few American Mexicans who live in wealthier communities in Mexico City, and Americans living in gated retirement communities in Guadalajara. I think it is undeniable there is more overall violence in the north of Mexico right now than in the US. How that translates to travelers is pure speculation. The context of when and where it occurs is different in both countries. It would be wise to watch out while down there. Gringos are not somehow immune to it, and there are a lot of Mexicans who are not very happy with the US.

Is it safe to travel to Potrero? Maybe, but it is wise to have your wits about you. I would say the vast majority of people I met in Potrero had no experience traveling in Mexico outside of Potrero or with the sorts of situations that could get them into trouble in Mexico.


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By M Sprague
Administrator
From New England
Jan 30, 2013
Lichen head. Me, with my usual weatherbeaten, lichen covered look from scrubbing a new route.

JeremyB wrote:
Oh yeah? Why not?


I am not a statistician, but to start, you compare going there to driving in the USA. Driving is not a luxury as much as going to Mexico to climb. Mexico has almost twice as many traffic deaths per 100k (not as bad as Eretria) so if you were getting into the minutia, you would have to add your chance of dying in a car crash while there.
More relevant is the raw murder rate, which I think is about 4 and a half times greater in Mexico than the USA. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homic>>>
Looking at this map upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2b/Mexican_St>>>
It looks like Chihuahua has a higher rate of conflict than other parts of Mexico cnsnews.com/news/article/one-mexican-state-bordering-us-was->>> 67 for every 100,000 inhabitants, almost 14 times the US.
Interestingly enough, going to the Caribbean to lie on a beach and smoke a doobe is not much better. Jamaica’s homicide rate is 52.2/100k. Cayman is only 8.2.


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By Curtis Tripp
From Moab, UT
Jan 30, 2013

pat vernon wrote:
Nice stat Curtis, but like most stats it probably doesn't say much. There are quite a few American Mexicans who live in wealthier communities in Mexico City, and Americans living in gated retirement communities in Guadalajara. I think it is undeniable there is more overall violence in the north of Mexico right now than in the US.


I couldn't resist once people started debating the stats of the matter. As you could read above, I was not trying to claim that the violence wasn't real. I just think that it's worth noting the huge difference in murder rates between Americans in Mexico and Mexicans in Mexico.

With that said, this is obviously good advice:
pat vernon wrote:
How that translates to travelers is pure speculation. The context of when and where it occurs is different in both countries. It would be wise to watch out while down there. Gringos are not somehow immune to it, and there are a lot of Mexicans who are not very happy with the US.


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By MojoMonkey
Jan 30, 2013

Found this video showing the bar at the Potrero with police tape and authorities investigating, so I think the Rock and Ice article does have it right.


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By PatrickV
From Albuquerque, New Mexico
Jan 30, 2013
mexico

Fair enough Curtis, stats are always interesting. Potrero is interesting, I can't think of another town or city in northern Mexico where well to do gringos flock to. It's an anomaly. I don't think this happening made the area any more or less dangerous, it is just kind of a wake-up call, norther Mexico is often compared to a war zone and not everyone likes us there. It is wise to watch out. You don't need stats to back that up JeremyB.

I think it interesting to read the one comment under the video posted above, its a common sentiment:

Ahora mientras los Gringos sigan necesitando la droga para mantener su sociedad corrupta y degenerada, jamás habrá Paz en nuestros paises puesto que siempre habrá alguien dispuesto a matar para mantener el Vicio de los Malditos Gringos.

While the Gringos continue needing their drugs to keep their corrupt degenerate society running, there will never be peace in our countries as long as there is always someone ready to kill in order to supply the vices of the damn gringos.


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By JLP
From The Internet
Jan 30, 2013

Stephen Ackley wrote:
Common sense will keep you from getting mixed up with these folks.

I think you'll want some "mexican common sense" - not something the average visitor has. This is the problem. As long as every mine is flagged, I would have no problems walking through a minefield. Otherwise, I would not. I would use my common sense and go somewhere else.


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By nick manning
From superior,az
Jan 30, 2013

pat vernon wrote:
Murder rates: 4.8/100,000 people in the US and 22.7/100,000 people in Mexico in 2010. www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/statistics/crime/H>>> Pretty sure automobile deaths are higher as well. There is a war of sorts going on in Mexico, even if you haven't seen it on your one trip to Potrero. No use in denying it exists. Edit to add: Nice stat Curtis, but like most stats it probably doesn't say much. There are quite a few American Mexicans who live in wealthier communities in Mexico City, and Americans living in gated retirement communities in Guadalajara. I think it is undeniable there is more overall violence in the north of Mexico right now than in the US. How that translates to travelers is pure speculation. The context of when and where it occurs is different in both countries. It would be wise to watch out while down there. Gringos are not somehow immune to it, and there are a lot of Mexicans who are not very happy with the US. Is it safe to travel to Potrero? Maybe, but it is wise to have your wits about you. I would say the vast majority of people I met in Potrero had no experience traveling in Mexico outside of Potrero or with the sorts of situations that could get them into trouble in Mexico.


i'll take my chances in the U.S were we have a functioning police force.


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By nick manning
From superior,az
Jan 30, 2013

pat vernon wrote:
Fair enough Curtis, stats are always interesting. Potrero is interesting, I can't think of another town or city in northern Mexico where well to do gringos flock to. It's an anomaly. I don't think this happening made the area any more or less dangerous, it is just kind of a wake-up call, norther Mexico is often compared to a war zone and not everyone likes us there. It is wise to watch out. You don't need stats to back that up JeremyB. I think it interesting to read the one comment under the video posted above, its a common sentiment: Ahora mientras los Gringos sigan necesitando la droga para mantener su sociedad corrupta y degenerada, jamás habrá Paz en nuestros paises puesto que siempre habrá alguien dispuesto a matar para mantener el Vicio de los Malditos Gringos. While the Gringos continue needing their drugs to keep their corrupt degenerate society running, there will never be peace in our countries as long as there is always someone ready to kill in order to supply the vices of the damn gringos.

does europe count as the damn gringos? cuz they are sending ton quantities of cocaine there. Africa too


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By PatrickV
From Albuquerque, New Mexico
Jan 30, 2013
mexico

I'm not agreeing with the comment, just pointing out the animosity that exists.


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By Ben Brotelho
From Albany, NY
Jan 30, 2013
Epic free solo with a pack on

Pretty unrelated, but I read in Harpers magazine that the drug cartel stands to lose 1,400,000,000 from the legalization of marijuana in colorado and washington. Yes, 1 Billion 400 mill. Crazy!


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By matt davies
Jan 30, 2013

Ben Brotelho wrote:
. Yes, 1 Billion 400 mill. Crazy!

Too big to fail.


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By Chris Small
Jan 30, 2013

Unfortunately, when bullets start to fly tents tend to make for poor armor.


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By alpinglow
From city, state
Jan 30, 2013

Imagine being tied in the chair, waiting for you Dad to answer the phone and pony up the 50k because they kidnapped you.

Imagine watching all the amigos enter and exit the room next to yours were your wife is, your daughter, or your pretty DeltaDeltaDelta girlfriend who likes to boulder.

Now imagine yourself on the glacier in the Bugaboos.

Which sounds better for a climbing trip?


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By Ben Brotelho
From Albany, NY
Jan 30, 2013
Epic free solo with a pack on

alpinglow wrote:
Imagine being tied in the chair, waiting for you Dad to answer the phone and pony up the 50k because they kidnapped you. Imagine watching all the amigos enter and exit the room next to yours were your wife is, your daughter, or your pretty DeltaDeltaDelta girlfriend who likes to boulder. Now imagine yourself on the glacier in the Bugaboos. Which sounds better for a climbing trip?


You convinced me


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By Goldsmith
From Ithaca, New York
Jan 30, 2013

Was in squamish for a month, someone stole my bike post and seat. Its crazy up there


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By david goldstein
Jan 30, 2013

matt davies wrote:
Too big to fail.


Touche.


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By Kevin Nicastro
From Denver, Co
Jan 30, 2013

Hey. I wanted to stay out of it but since this thread has run to three pages debating whether this happened near El Potrero Chico I would like to clarify: I have been living here since November and was in town the day they the band was reported missing. It is, in fact, a five minute walk from Potrero. I hope that clarifies the issue.

As far as the climbers down here: This is a known cartel bar and, most of the time, climbers don't go there and are probably not welcome there. There is still a larger police presence here (some compared to none) but that should wear out before the end of the week. None of the climbers here have expressed anything that sounds like they feel unsafe nor has any locals said anything out of the ordinary.


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By J1.
From Boulder, Colorado
Jan 31, 2013
Towliee

alpinglow wrote:
Imagine being tied in the chair, waiting for you Dad to answer the phone and pony up the 50k because they kidnapped you. Imagine watching all the amigos enter and exit the room next to yours were your wife is, your daughter, or your pretty DeltaDeltaDelta girlfriend who likes to boulder. Now imagine yourself on the glacier in the Bugaboos. Which sounds better for a climbing trip?


Best thread post yet!


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By Jack Sparrow
From denver, co
Jan 31, 2013

Hey Kevin how many climbers are in the potrero now? Im planning a solo trip soon and am worried about finding partners.


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