Potential Disaster Averted - I hope! Beginners please read.

IF YOU WANT TO CLIMB DON'T JUST BUY GEAR AND GO CLIMBING, AND NOT AT NIGHT! GET PROPER INSTRUCTION.

This happened yesterday. It was getting dark as we were packing up to leave the climbing area when some guys showed up to do some "night climbing." At first my partner and I assumed they were experienced climbers, but then we started to notice some things - the one guy did double back his harness, leg loops or waist belt; his belayer had the waist belt of his harness on upside down! So we pointed these things out and they corrected them. Then the one guy ties in incorrectly, I immediately spoke up and said you guys don't know what you are doing, and then my partner asked, "do you know how to clean a route", they were of course completely clueless, did not know how to thread anchors. And they were doing this with one headlamp and flashlights.

At this point I had seen enough and said this is ridiculous you guys obvioulsy don't know what you are doing. Fortunately we were in Muir Valley in the Red and there are practice anchor stations on several of the walls. So I took them thru the whole drill on how to go into the anchors directly etc etc. the same as if they had reached the anchors. And again fortunately they were open to being taught. Two of the guys went thru the entire process correctly before we left. And my partner and I couldn't stress enough that they had no business climbing period without further instruction let alone trying it at night.

As we walked out we kept going over the potential scenarios that could have happened resulting in a serious accident - ground fall from harness failing was the main one. And they had a young kid with them maybe 11 or 12, setting a bad example without even knowing it.

I have been climbing for over 40 years, have made my share of mistakes but I have never seen a situation like this - So to new climbers please get proper instruction and find an experienced climber to mentor you. Yes mentoring maybe old school but those of us that have been around for 30 or more years must be doing something right. And I'm still learning new things all the time. Be careful out there. Gravity can be a mean bitch when disrespected.

Dang. Good on you for speaking up.

I have been to the Red half a dozen times, and have been witness to incidents similar to this on most if not all trips. There is definatly a gym mentality at most of the easier crags/routes there. Has to be at least in part to the proximity of the Red to some larger cities with gyms but not a lot of other climbing. I think that, and the perception that all I need is a rope and a set of draws to climb there (instruction optional), leads to a lot of gumby sport epics at best, and accidents at worst. Sounds to me like you did the right thing. We cant just walk away shaking our heads in serious situations like this, despite how much we might feel these folks have no business there to begin with. Access is always a concern. The news story is going to call them "climbers" not "gumbies" so like it or not we all have a stake in it.

This sounds so much like the story of a deadly episode on Gelsa (5.4)in the Near Trapps at the Gunks.some time in the '90s?!

I've heard about this "night climbing" fad, and I don't get it. "Let's go climb when it's harder to see anything."

Night climbing is fun, I even cut my headlamp off when the moon is bright enough that i don't need it. I recommend not doing it on stuff at your limit when you have never climbed the route though. I will say i have decided to drop down instead of keep going while night bouldering on some higher routes at HP40 onetime because I could no longer see the crash pad.

Some gyms have "night climbing" events, often, I think, as part of a headlamp demo occasion. So the idea can be planted in what is the most benign possible environment.

Some gyms are starting to catch on to the transition problems and are beginning to address them with "gym to crag" courses. But the casual nature of gym climbing is always going to be a problem for folks heading outdoors, and this is not only for newbies.

FrankPS wrote:I've heard about this "night climbing" fad, and I don't get it. "Let's go climb when it's harder to see anything."

One of these on multi youll need to climb into the night, or get a predawn start

You better be able to do it ... Or find a wam partner that likes to spoon

Not to mention doing runs on popular moderate multis at night on summer weekends with a set of cleaning tools often nets bootay

;)

I wish I was more careless about possibly looking like a cocky know-it-all when it came to witnessing poor, hazardous technique. Correct it before it becomes more solidified into muscle memory. Good on you for being the watchful eye I wish I would've been. I've walked away from multiple scenes, wondering if that climber-to-be made it out ok. Thanks for sharing. Look out for one another.

I led a sport route after dark with a head lamp one time, in a very dim spot light at a climbing campground in Trapani, Sicily. Added a thrill to executing reachy and dynamic moves on a very tall 5.11. One of those things that gave me that "check in the box" feeling. I felt a lil pushed back, experience wise, as this was a new concept for me. I feel good 'n strong on the first 1/3 of any 5.11, and have completely accepted climbing above bolts and running my climb out to clipping my next bolt at waist level with no regard to the whipper that lies in wait down below me--in daylight. I'll climb into the dark, hopefully some day, having experienced it before, and won't get as severe of a feeling of being "questionable" about the unknown in such a wild situation, having experienced it to a slight degree, before (on a trying, exposed 5.10+ sport route where I felt so alone because of how far above my belayer I was). And I I DID take a whipper at about 1/2 to 3/4 of the way up. My newbie girlfriend found out what it's like to get rope burn because you panicked and grabbed the rope above the ATC with both hands. I got caught less than 15ft above the deck. Good thing that bolt held. Why do I do this, again?!?

Just to clarify, I have nothing against climbing in the dark and often do to get full value for the day. Plus its good experience.

But these guys were so far over there heads and really knew nothing!

When I started climbing in the mid '70's the climbing community was so much smaller and mentoring with a more experienced climber was the typical way things were done. With climbing gyms and the exponential increase in people wanting to try climbing this isn't practical. So the question to the climbing community is - How do we get the information out there to avert accidents.

The other reason I feel this is important is it comes down to access. Muir Valley is private property, the Webers have been very gracious in providing us the opportunity to climb on their property. But it only takes one accident that results in litigation to close an area. Yeah we sign waivers but how binding are they?

Any thoughts on this?

Peter are you from cincinnati by any chance?

Well the good news is that the folks you saved were receptive to instruction

You see this type of situation all the time in squamish, even in multi

Folks who dont know how to build basic anchors, tie in properly, belay, etc ...

Often when you try to correct them politely they get all offended "hey i know what im doing !!!!"

This is especially true when its a young guy taking out a young cute gurl ... Or one of those bangfest "group leaders"

Its the nature of an increasingly popular urban sport

;)

bearbreeder wrote: One of these on multi youll need to climb into the night, or get a predawn start You better be able to do it ... Or find a wam partner that likes to spoon Not to mention doing runs on popular moderate multis at night on summer weekends with a set of cleaning tools often nets bootay ;)

Agreed - Half of the winter alpine routes are done at in the dark! Not to mention, that if us working stiff 9-5'ers ever want to climb on rock/ice during the work week, we better figure out how to climb when the sun goes down.

@OP: Good for speaking up and helping these guys. Seems like they were open to some instruction.

J

Yes, I'm from Cincinnati, have we met?

Did you used to be a staple at climb time a few years back. When all the hooting and hollering was going on?

bearbreeder wrote:Or one of those bangfest "group leaders" Its the nature of an increasingly popular urban sport ;)

I had started noticing that a LOT at the Red! And Clear Creek Canyon. At first I wondered what was going on, since there are more male climbers than females, why one guy was surrounded by so many females at climbing areas (should be the other way around!). THEN it dawned on me, these girls don't climb! That way, when you lead your 5.9 all the chicks will be in awe (whereas females who actually climb won't be so in awe).

Peter D. wrote: Yeah we sign waivers but how binding are they? Any thoughts on this?

In this instance, the waivers don't actually matter that much. KY recreational use statutes make the landowner & user responsibilities clear. However, neither waiver nor law can prevent a lawsuit from being filed.

I have spoken on multiple occasions to another prominent landowner in the RRG who makes his land available for climbing, and while he's never lost a suit, he's been sued 4 or 5 times after climbing accidents. Each time he had to hire an attorney, file briefs, etc., at a cost of 5-10k or more per instance.

J Antin wrote: Agreed - Half of the winter alpine routes are done at in the dark! Not to mention, that if us working stiff 9-5'ers ever want to climb on rock/ice during the work week, we better figure out how to climb when the sun goes down.

Exactly. Living in Boulder climbing the flatirons at night is normal, and like you said getting in some pitches of ice after dark is how us day walkers do it. Sometimes it's even better since you climb in the "eggshell" of your headlamp. All that exists is what's right in front of you.

Like Bearbreeder said this issue is EVERYWHERE. Lots of people with disposable cash that walk into REI and buy up a whole rack and a go-pro ready to get rad. Funny you need instruction to buy a car or to carry a gun, but you are free to take a fall. Of course it would be impossible to restrict those types of purchases, but I find it mind-bottling to see people in dangerous situations with zero clue what they are doing.

Muir Valley is very notorious for being a haven for climbers whose egos are bigger than their brains and way bigger than their experience...Been there about 15 times and try to avoid Muir every time. Such a huge percentage of people there are just waiting to win a Darwin award and do things like cross right in front of me while I'm lead belaying and twist their rope around mine etc. while I ask what in the great f*ck they are doing.

Not all the RRG is like this! Stick to PMRP or the new and amazingly quiet Miller Fork area. Last time I went, Muir Valley was SO busy (it's like 350 acres) that they were turning people away. We went to Miller Fork (300 acres) and there was one other car in the parking lot.

And if you're new to climbing and taking a trip outdoors PLEASE consult an expert climber or someone who works at the gym, ANYONE. Just double check your skills and knowledge so you don't kill yourself or your friends.

Short Beta wrote:PLEASE consult an expert climber or someone who works at the gym, ANYONE. Just double check your skills and knowledge so you don't kill yourself or your friends.

Asking advise at the gym is a 50/50 shot. Saw a gym employee let a girl backclip every draw during her lead test. I spoke up, and he replied "I'll tell her when she gets down".

Guess it was a question on how fast she was going to come down.

Chris Massey wrote: We cant just walk away shaking our heads in serious situations like this, despite how much we might feel these folks have no business there to begin with. Access is always a concern. The news story is going to call them "climbers" not "gumbies" so like it or not we all have a stake in it.

Chris, you're absolutely right. A few years ago, some 14-year-old boy visiting from Kansas scrambled up the backside of the West Ridge and then fell off the front side. The headlines were "Climber falls and dies in Eldorado". I remember thinking the Access Fund should have sued the TV media for slander.

My initial reaction, were I in the OP's position, would be to walk away and let evolution take its course. You might save them this time, but when they are that stupid, they'll eventually find a way to hurt or kill themselves.

Our modern society, for better or worse, is the antithesis of evolution. It closes climbing areas to protect us from ourselves, but condones driving while talking on cell-phones, which is the leading cause of injuries and deaths on the road, surpassing drunk driving.

Therein lies the hypocrisy of society: Everybody gets a driver's license, which kills about 50,000 people a year, and those losses are deemed acceptable, but let one person die climbing and they close the cliff.

So the OP did what he did for a selfish reason(s): to keep the cliff open and perhaps to feel good about his actions. But if we don't want society to protect us from ourselves, why should we feel compelled protect others from themselves?

I think I need another cup of coffee and a doughnut.