Placing hexes in it's cammed position in horizontal cracks

So I've noticed that of the current hex manufacturers, DMM is the only one that shows in their manual that placing a hex in a horizontal crack in it's cammed position is acceptable. Where as Wild Country and Metolius do not show that (only vertical crack placement in cammed position), and Black Diamond doesn't show any pictures in their manual of what sort of placements they deem a safe and acceptable use of their hexes.

In your opinion, and preferably having experience with some of these brand hexes in this situation, is this an oversight on Metolius, Wild Country, and Black Diamond's part? Or is this sort of placement not safe with these three brands? Or maybe, at least with Black Diamond, they don't want to be liable for poor placement that leads to injury or death and don't wish to show what types of placements are safe and acceptable?

Camming hexes has like many of the dark arts of passive pro use has largely been made redundant by cams. On the rare occasion doing something funky with hexes or nuts in opposition might be useful, but most of the time it is better simply to use the right tool for the job.

While the camming action allows some measure of range. The ideal placement will lay flat on both side of the crack. Is the least likey to slip out as you climb above the placement. A slightly rotated one needs to be set, and could work free due to rope action.

Climb for joy wrote:patto Your comment is completely off topic. I don't own any cams and won't until next year when the budget allows for buying a small amount of them. So this is all relevant Because I own DMM, Wild Country, Metolius hexes, and one Black Diamond hex. It's generally considered impolite in forums to go off topic. If you don't have the answer, or don't like the topic, please just pass on by and comment on another thread. Thank you.

Just don't get hurt please

patto wrote:Camming hexes has like many of the dark arts of passive pro use has largely been made redundant by cams.

You're right save when leading icy cracks where cams will just slide out. Don't think the OP has mixed in mind though.
I've never used Metolious hexes but I don't see why you couldn't actively place any brand. They are different shapes but, as far as I'm concerned, they're basically the same hunk of metal. On that note however, it wouldn't surprise me if hex designs with a rounded side such as Metolious or Wild Country need to be placed with the curved side on the bottom. Don't quote me on that however because I've honestly never had to do it.
There is some range in camming ability for hexes but it isn't nearly as reassuring to climb above a loose one, especially when you hear it move out of its original spot. Maybe I'm just not a highly proficient placer.

In my opinion, hexes are a bad choice for smooth and parallel sided cracks, either horizontal or vertical. Can you get a hexes to cam just right? Maybe, depending on the hex size and crack size. But those placements are definitely where cams shine (and tricam can be used). I look for an edge or lump to hold one side of the hex, in order to help the camming action but still provide retention. Or a slight constriction to slip it in behind (just like a nut). I simply wouldn't trust a hex in a smooth and parallel side crack with camming action and friction on the two touching edges alone. But that's just me.

Hmm. I don't really use my hexes anymore, but I have used my BD hexes in a cammed position in a horizontal crack as long as it could be placed far enough back from the lip.(My hexes are over 20 years old now and only the smaller sizes are wired)
To be honest I never read the little book that came with them as I followed what my mentor did, and what I read in books. I've not had a properly set hex come out or not hold me in a fall. Now I use my tricams or cams.

I'd like to ask, have you practiced setting them like this and if so did they feel bomber? Was it easy to do one handed? That's all that really matters as far as I can see.

Ted Angus wrote: Just don't get hurt please

Patto won´t be hurt, he will accept his admonishment with good grace:-)

Jack C. wrote: You're right save when leading icy cracks where cams will just slide out.

Yeah, but so will a camming hex! By all means use hexes and nuts for constrictions.

Jim Titt wrote: Patto won´t be hurt, he will accept his admonishment with good grace:-)

Where is the fun it that!? ;-)

patto wrote: Yeah, but so will a camming hex! By all means use hexes and nuts for constrictions.

You may have me there! Again, I've never done it. I'm just going off of what I've heard from mixed and ice climbers who I guess I shouldn't assume have done it themselves.

As worthwhile as this discussion is I'm afraid I'll get chastized for talking about camming hexes in a mixed scenario. This could be mistaken as off topic so I'll leave it at that!

Will I get in trouble again if i post this?

Is it a cam? Is it a hex?

Just wanted to clarify. The ideal placement is actually a constriction. Parallel sided cracks on smooth stone benefit greatly from a springloaded device to stay safely in place. I'd only use a hex there as a last resort.

Tri-cams rule

Climb for joy,

Craig's got some good advice. A hex should be treated like a big ass nut. There is no reason not to place one in a horizontal crack so long as there is a constriction. A hex in a parallel sided crack is a crapshoot. If your aiding it might support bodywieght, and might even be really solid until you climb past it... Without some sort of constriction and regardless of how long you sling it, a hex in a parallel crack will fall out easily. My experience is limited to straight sided hexes and hopefully your curved hexes will stay put a bit better.

Another thing about hexes is that they're so damn wide that a slight constriction might only grab an edge, or pinch the center of the hex and make for an unstable placement. So if your on a tight budget you may consider ordering a couple of wild country's oversized stoppers and skip the hexes in that size range, I think the placement opportunity for something narrower outweigh the benefits of something that half ass "cams".

Also, good call on aiding to get to know your new toys.

The main thing I've encountered with horizontal cracks is not specific to hexes - sometimes there's an edge to deal with which sometimes might be sharp, or require a different approach to ensure the carabiner isn't loaded over the edge.

Climbing gear as a general rule seems to be extremely poorly documented, instructions tend to be very brief.

I think if you come across a good horizontal hex placement, unless there's something better go with it and move on. Even if there is some unknown to us reason and the placement blows, placements blowing is a fact of life anyway.

On the tricam note...I'm going to get some more! Never progressed far enough with hexes to be very confident in their ability to hold on camming alone (like others they were mostly oversized nuts for me).

I started out with a passive rack, with a full single set of slung BD hexes (#1-#11?), and a double set of nuts. I used the hexes in cammed positions many times. I only took one fall on a cammed hex, and had no issues. It's definitely difficult to place a hex in a solid cam with only one hand tho. But properly cammed and set, they are solid, and can be a bitch to clean. haha

I've done it both ways, but the way in the video is not really a true cammed hex. It's a passive placement in a cammed position for extra comfort I suppose. A hex that is actually cammed will often end up on just two edges simply because its not the exact size for that crack. While not as ideal as flat edges against the rock on both sides, its not that easy to always find the "Perfect" hex placement.
That's one reason the Rockcentrics are the better hex imo, because of the rounded side, they have a larger camming ability than a BD.

Jake T wrote:Climb for joy, Craig's got some good advice. A hex should be treated like a big ass nut. There is no reason not to place one in a horizontal crack so long as there is a constriction. A hex in a parallel sided crack is a crapshoot. If your aiding it might support bodywieght, and might even be really solid until you climb past it... Without some sort of constriction and regardless of how long you sling it, a hex in a parallel crack will fall out easily. My experience is limited to straight sided hexes and hopefully your curved hexes will stay put a bit better. Another thing about hexes is that they're so damn wide that a slight constriction might only grab an edge, or pinch the center of the hex and make for an unstable placement. So if your on a tight budget you may consider ordering a couple of wild country's oversized stoppers and skip the hexes in that size range, I think the placement opportunity for something narrower outweigh the benefits of something that half ass "cams". Also, good call on aiding to get to know your new toys.

Jake has some good tips here. I applaud you for climbing with passive pro. i climbed mainly with passive pro when i started out. it is a different game for sure. i usually place my hexes with a restriction below to further enhance the placement. this can be done easily in granite but sandstone not so much. definitely get your placements down and forget about buying 2 sets of SLCDS. saves money and you will be a badass cause you can climb on passive pro. i like to do some routes over in passive pro only. makes for some interesting climbs

I am going to say this because i feel it needs to be said I am not trying to be a jerk take it as constructive criticism or, don't I don't really care. How you react is up to you.

Hexes are only part of a rack, they do not replace cams or their abilities. If you are unwilling or unable to pay for a full rack of needed protection consider climbing with a partner who has the full rack. When the necessary gear is readily available from many retailers, second hand, or borrowed there is no excuse for not having it.

I know a climber who has not had a job in years, lives out of his car, begs for gas as gas stations, and frequently cuts various financial corners, props to him. Somehow he has acquired a very very nice full set of cams/rack. I recall him making a statement to me a while back along the lines of "if you are not willing to make the investment in the proper climbing gear you shouldn't be climbing"

That said I love passive pro it is my go to a lot of the time, many climbs can be safely done relying on only passive pro.

I do not have concerns about the video'ed placement's holding power in a downward pull but, if for some reason there is an outward pull, it looks like it would come right out.

More and more commonly passive placements are becoming a lost art. The comments the other day about people yanking on nut placements to get them out is a case in point, or the one where climbers are insisting that horizontal nut placements are not safe.
Passive pro is ALWAYS my first choice, then cams. I would fall all day on that placement in the video. You could hang a truck off that hex...