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petzl Tibloc Ascender question
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By jafrizza
From Golden CO
Mar 2, 2011
Halfway there.

me and a buddy want to rap down into a cave in the near future and know were going to need ascenders to get back up.i figure a set of tiblocs will work. maybe make a webbing handle? My main concern are the teeth i wont be doing this often and don't aid so i don't want to damage my climbing rope with those little teeth. Will those hurt the rope?


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By Evan1984
Mar 2, 2011

Well, the teeth won't "hurt" your rope, but they won't do it any favors.

A tibloc can chew the hell out of a rope if its carelessly used. The best tip for preserving your rope is to fully engaged and disengage the tibloc on each move. If the tibloc has a good bite on the rope, it won't slip, which is what shreds the sheath.

Personally, I think the main advantage of a tibloc over a prussik/kleimheist is on icey ropes. I don't know that I'd invest in a set for one outing.

Finally, and I hope you don't find it condescending, but make sure you know how to ascend a rope before you drop into the cave. It can be strenuous and it is dangerous if not done properly. Remember that two ascenders aren't two points of protection. Always short clip yourself in. Practice on the ground to get your thethers the right length and make sure you've got your system dialed.

If you have a gri-gri, look up the "frogger" way to climb a rope on the big wall forums. It is easier and more secure in most situations.

Cheers,
Evan


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By Larry S
Mar 2, 2011
The wife and I road-trippin on the Connie.

+1 to everything Evan said.

They can mess it up if you don't use them deliberately. Definitely practice it first, know how to set it up for overhaninging and slabbed in jugging. You really want to get your daisies/leashes the right length or you will have a bad time. I learned/practiced overhanging jugging from a stout tree branch about 20 feet up in my back yard. These links are pretty usefull for general jugging. Supertopo 1 and Supertopo 2


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By Stich
From Colorado Springs, Colorado
Mar 2, 2011
Coffee after freezing our asses off near James Peak.

Either borrow or purchase used some actually good ascenders and configure your system before you rap into the cave and you will be a lot happier. Tiblocs are strictly for emergencies in my opinion. You'll love the sudden jolt you get when you don't set one correctly and marvel at the shredded rope sheath. That said, I carry a pair in the backcountry and have used them successfully to clear jammed ropes.


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By RockinOut
From NY, NY
Mar 2, 2011
Gear

Just tie a Bachmann to ascend the rope. You probably already have the cord and biner to do so and its just as efficient in ascending, but without the risk of damaging your rope


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By Rick Blair
From Denver
Mar 2, 2011
This is a novel auto blocking belay device.  I think it works quite well, depending on rope thickness and sheath quality, it belays very smooth.  Great to lower with.  You gotta love over engineering.  $3 at a gear swap!

For 1 time I like the Bachman advice above, its a great friction hitch but make sure you back those up with an occasional knot.

If you really want ascenders go splurge on a pair of Petzl jugs.


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By Buff Johnson
Mar 2, 2011
smiley face

Yeah, why tibloc when you need to jug?

hook up with some cavers and you'll learn all kinds of neat safety crap.


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By Larry S
Mar 2, 2011
The wife and I road-trippin on the Connie.

Not to advocate not using the correct equipment, but I'm not sure how serious a venture this is. If it's a short 1 time section I needed to ascend and I didn't have the gear (daisies, entriers, mechanical ascenders) but had a grigri/atc guide (or similar) I'd probably do the following:

It's basically an upside down 3:1 haul system. Hook up the grigri to the fixed line, some sort of prussik (ascender, bachmann, etc) on the rope about head height with a caribiner on it. Run the brake rope from the grigri thru the biner on the prussik/ascender and back down. Pull the rope, and you've got a 3:1 to lift yourself. Grigri captures the progress, slide the prussik up, repeat. Remember to tie in occasionally. Make a stirrup and a second prussik for the free end and it gets even easier; lift with your legs. You can use an atc guide instead of the grigri, but the grigri makes it very easy to go up and down without re-rigging. It's a little slow, but it's not much work at all and takes very little gear. I've seen people use this system for route setting in the gym and used it myself to get back up a rappel line when i went down to far.

If this is a serious bit of ascending though, i'ld suggest getting some real ascenders. Above all, make sure you know what you're doing, because it's your ass on the line if you can't get back up out of the thing.


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By EvanH
From Boone, NC
Mar 2, 2011

Several thoughts.

I would not buy a set of Tiblocs to ascend a fixed line out of a cave. I own two Tiblocs and love them, but I use them as a backup for my Petzl Ascension handled ascenders. The handles are a huge advantage when jugging up a fixed line. If you are going to do this more than once, invest in a set of real ascenders. If you're not going to be doing this often and want to save a buck, invest in some 7mm cord made into prusik loops or buy a set of Metolius pre-made prusiks for $20 and learn to ascend a fixed line using a three-knot prusik system. They'll work fine for caving (unless you plan on venturing into frozen caves, in which case you probably shouldn't need to ask this question).

Finally, you should consider getting a static rope to cave with. I'm not a huge fan of rappelling and jugging a bunch on dynamic rope.


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By mucci
From sf ca
Mar 2, 2011

Having knott jugged anything before, if you use tiblocs, both of you will never make it out of the cave.

Larry S system is bomber and you probably have all of that stuff.

Or use the Kliemhiest/and or Bachmanns.. with backup knotts.


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By John Wilder
From Las Vegas, NV
Mar 2, 2011

The most important thing about using tiblocs (all the other great advice above notwithstanding) is that you use a round-stock carabiner- the Petzl Owall or Attache (not the 3d)- this ensures the device is oriented correctly and wont damage the rope.


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By Brian in SLC
Mar 2, 2011
Climbing in Smuggler's Notch

Evan Horvath aka Evan1984 wrote:
If the tibloc has a good bite on the rope, it won't slip, which is what shreds the sheath.


Yeah, if it slips at all, your rope might look like this:

Tibloc rope shred
Tibloc rope shred


Was doing a practise haul a number of years ago and used a Tibloc for progress capture. Ugh.


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By Larry S
Mar 2, 2011
The wife and I road-trippin on the Connie.

John Wilder wrote:
The most important thing about using tiblocs (all the other great advice above notwithstanding) is that you use a round-stock carabiner- the Petzl Owall or Attache (not the 3d)- this ensures the device is oriented correctly and wont damage the rope.


Good advice. Also, just FYI, in my experience the sharp and hard edges of the holes in the tiblocs tend to leave some gouges in the biner you use.


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By jafrizza
From Golden CO
Mar 2, 2011
Halfway there.

well i am glad i asked instead of just going for it. I think i will learn Larry's system its about 70 ft and that pic is exactly what i was worried about


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By Larry S
Mar 3, 2011
The wife and I road-trippin on the Connie.

jafrizza wrote:
well i am glad i asked instead of just going for it. I think i will learn Larry's system its about 70 ft and that pic is exactly what i was worried about



Little sketch of the system, thought it might help.
Little sketch of the system, thought it might help.


Quick little sketch to help you out. Make sure you pad any sharp edges or places the rope will abrade, esp if it's a dynamic line.


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By John Wilder
From Las Vegas, NV
Mar 3, 2011

if you use the system larry drew, but hang the stirrup off the top prusik (bachmann, whatever) instead of below it'll work even better. thats what i use for re-bolting, and i can jug a pitch in a couple minutes using that system.


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By RockinOut
From NY, NY
Mar 3, 2011
Gear

Nice schematic. But I would leave out that foot stirrup. I would put a bend in the rope where the bachmann is for the foot stirrup and just stand on the rope while holding the lower end. Saves gear, time, and you're still using body weight to hoist yourself up.


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By jafrizza
From Golden CO
Mar 4, 2011
Halfway there.

the diagram really helped a lot but i dont understand what the oval biner in the front of ATC guide is for I have an ATC-XP witch doesn't have the front loop. whats the biner up front for?


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By Evan1984
Mar 4, 2011

jafrizza wrote:
the diagram really helped a lot but i dont understand what the oval biner in the front of ATC guide is for I have an ATC-XP witch doesn't have the front loop. whats the biner up front for?


Setting up the ATC guide in auto-bloc mode requires two biners. The one that attaches the atc to your harness and the other that captures the rope within the system and locks up.

You cannot do the Larry's method with an ATC XP becuase it doesn't have the guide mode option.

Evan


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By Larry S
Mar 4, 2011
The wife and I road-trippin on the Connie.

jafrizza wrote:
the diagram really helped a lot but i dont understand what the oval biner in the front of ATC guide is for I have an ATC-XP witch doesn't have the front loop. whats the biner up front for?


Check out the video here. You'd be doing the same way, but rather than rigged to an anchor, the rope is fixed and the ATC is rigged like that to you (but upside down).


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By jafrizza
From Golden CO
Mar 4, 2011
Halfway there.

Cool thanks for all the info guys


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By CodyW
From Golden,Co
Apr 12, 2011
Yup <br />

alpineinstitute.blogspot.com/2009/07/rappel-rope-climbing-tr>>>


This is pretty nifty, its a pretty simple ascender setup, especially combined with either prusik, bachman, or a kleimheist (spelling, sorry) above the device. i especially like the idea of an extended repel device. ive never tried it before, but in about 10 minutes ill be in a tree giving it a shot. let you know how it goes jafrizza


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By CodyW
From Golden,Co
Apr 12, 2011
Yup <br />

yup, so out of a tree, the length on the device set for rap doesnt really do it for me, but i look forward to trying it on a longer rap. as for the ascend set up, its suuuuper easy and works very well. very well. i quickly learned that the stirrup, set above the device, works better when its a bit longer. after tying a 4 bight (would you call that a bight? i dunno) kleimheist, i slid the knot almost at full reach above my head, then i held my knee a little less than 90 degrees, and tied the stirrup. bam. leverage was good. the only problem i ran into was the pull, it was a pain getting the device set again for the reset. which looking back on larrys bamf drawing (seriously larry, who sets about drawing diagrams for us noobs to try and replicate in the tree out front? only the most bad ass dude named larry on this forum, thats who! :-D. double props for the gri gri AND ATC guide double diagram. you effing rock larry.) i can see the benefit of the setup there to pull, and reset the setup. its dark now, but i will have to try this setup tomorrow with larrys method and see how that works. The rope i used is suppper stiff to though. that and it was doubled in the device because i was in a hurry and just flung a sling around a branch, opposite and opposed 2 ovals and threw the rope through.

hmmm, I have a question, so lets say 2 people were to rap into this cave, and the rope was tied with a figure 8 at the top so there was no fear of it dropping in with us, would it be safe to ascend with 2 people on the same rope, next to each other? my first thought is yes, but thats alot of stress on a dynamic rope. difference between static or dynamic in this scenario?


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By Sam Stephens
Apr 12, 2011
Top half of Melifluous

Here's another option if you're in a pinch. Similar to what Larry posted but you can do it without a guide device. I'm not condoning having only one prussik as your safety net though. If I were to do this and had two prussiks, you can damn well but one would be solely attached to a sling or anchor chain and the other would be on the foot loop. But then If I had two prussics maybe I wouldn't be doing it this way.


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By Kilroywashere!
From Harrisonburg, Virginia
Apr 13, 2011
Kilroy

interesting video....not sure i really dig the thigh lock tie off thing though, seems kinda sketch


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By CodyW
From Golden,Co
Apr 13, 2011
Yup <br />

froggy wrote:
interesting video....not sure i really dig the thigh lock tie off thing though, seems kinda sketch


Agreed


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