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Petzl Spirit Biner breaks from normal lead fall
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By Ian Stewart
Apr 9, 2013
amarius wrote:
Then you should really flip your right biner, and the red area, that is area that you postulate would be the safe zone, will change. I would even guess it is going to be less than one on the right.


I don't understand what you mean by that. If you flipped the bottom biner on the right draw in my example it would be identical to the left draw.

amarius wrote:
If one were to return to OP- how many of you paid attention that Lena was right above the bolt when she fell? If she were above the bolt, the whole cis/trans orientation becomes irrelevant.


That's what I'm questioning...is it really irrelevant? In reality you never really move "straight up", and your body is almost always going to be on one side of the draw or the other. If you consider the "straight up" situation as being on the left 50% of the time and on the right 50% of the time, then reducing the chance of the biner getting hung up in either of these situations (left or right) is going to reduce the overall chance. If having your gates face the same direction does this, then it's certainly not irrelevant.

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By Ian Stewart
Apr 9, 2013
Also, for the record, I'm not considering this a "preventable" accident. I don't think that draw was clipped incorrectly and I would have whipped on it all day myself if I was there. Shit happens even if you do everything perfectly, and luckily it happened to this person 8 bolts up. I'm just extremely bored and thinking it's possible there's more to Petzl's preferred gate direction that I originally thought.

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By Christian
From Casa do Cacete
Apr 9, 2013
Mistah Kurtz
How about removing "normal" from the title of this thread Wylie?

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By Locker
From Yucca Valley, CA
Apr 9, 2013
...
Was it an ABNORMAL fall?

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By amarius
Apr 9, 2013
Ian Stewart wrote:
I don't understand what you mean by that. If you flipped the bottom biner on the right draw in my example it would be identical to the left draw.

If I read your post correctly, you were thinking how orientations of the draws affects movement of the rope in rope side carabiner.
Everyone seems to agree that rope side carabiner gate should be away from the movement. In the picture that you posted, rope side gates are pointing in different directions, this would imply movement in opposite directions, but the red shaded area is on the same side.

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By Will S
From Joshua Tree
Apr 9, 2013
Funny that I just loaded up on the old-style Spirits for sport draws because the new ones that replace them *(circa 2013), while lighter and easier to clip, are much weaker open-gate and cross loaded (7kn vs 9, and 8kn vs 11...something like that anyway, don't have them in front of me).

Can't view the OP's pics, but I am assuming from the OP's description, the broken one was one of the older, stronger ones.

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By kennoyce
From Layton, UT
Apr 9, 2013
Climbing at the Gallery in Red Rocks
Ian Stewart wrote:
Also, for the record, I'm not considering this a "preventable" accident. I don't think that draw was clipped incorrectly and I would have whipped on it all day myself if I was there. Shit happens even if you do everything perfectly, and luckily it happened to this person 8 bolts up. I'm just extremely bored and thinking it's possible there's more to Petzl's preferred gate direction that I originally thought.


I do see what you're saying, but in reality, the rope doesn't have to come in contact with the gate to start the draw rotating, the friction of the rope in the basket of the draw can get it rotating just as well. Though I'm not completely discounting it, I do highly doubt that this played into petzl's recommendation.

As far as this particular accident is concerned, as I have previously mentioned, Lena has said that she bumped the draw with her leg, so I still don't think the lower biner orientation had anything to do with it.

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By Locker
From Yucca Valley, CA
Apr 9, 2013
...
LESSON LEARNED:

Don't kick your draws when climbing and just like with ANY of your gear, IF you do, or something else fucks with it, CHECK IT before moving on.

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By NO MAS
From Las Vegas, NV
Apr 9, 2013
S Denny wrote:
or because that bolt is in a bad spot at the lip of a roof.


Looking at the photo linked below it does seem possible that the biner could have loaded across the lip of the small roof.

i45.tinypic.com/21ot3kn.jpg

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By Brad M
Apr 9, 2013
Will S wrote:
Funny that I just loaded up on the old-style Spirits for sport draws because the new ones that replace them *(circa 2013), while lighter and easier to clip, are much weaker open-gate and cross loaded (7kn vs 9, and 8kn vs 11...something like that anyway, don't have them in front of me). Can't view the OP's pics, but I am assuming from the OP's description, the broken one was one of the older, stronger ones.

Yer *STILL* GONNA DIE!!

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By teece303
From Highlands Ranch, CO
Apr 9, 2013
Aiding. Photo by Locker.
Locker wrote:
I don't see this biner breaking as a BINER issue personally. Or a bolt/hanger issue for that matter. I see it as one of those freak accidents.


BINGO!

All the discussion about biner orientation is a waste of time and thought. This shit happens, (rarely). The action of the rope could reorient a perfectly clipped biner in a fall, snapping it. Or it could have been kicked.

Either way, it was a VERY unlikely, freak accident.

Let's move on with our lives.

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By todd w
Apr 9, 2013
Obvious implications for bolt placement, though, wouldn't you say?

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By teece303
From Highlands Ranch, CO
Apr 9, 2013
Aiding. Photo by Locker.
Certainly, Todd. That's the most relevant issue here. And of course, we can think about how to best place our biners. But we can't guarantee they won't break (and even when terribly abused, they still generally won't break).

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