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Petzl Nomics vs Grivel Force/Master Alloy

Original Post
coop Best · · Glenwood Springs, CO · Joined Jan 2005 · Points: 485

Anyone directly compare these two tools?

Woodchuck ATC · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 3,280

I've directly compared the cost of either one as being outrageous and not in my budget...that's as much as I know.

Jeff Johnston · · Bozeman, MT · Joined Sep 2010 · Points: 110
coop wrote:Anyone directly compare these two tools?
I own a set of 1st gen Nomics and Love them, they climb ice well (better when the cascade pick was available). and dry tool closely second to the BD (green) fusions with the mixed pick, simply based on that the fusion handle is a bit more comfortable on long over hangs,I climb M5 to M6.

The Grivles, I had a chance to Demo these this last weekend at an ice fest. They climb ice WI4+ - WI5) quite well. They drytool amazingly well, I like the splattered rubberized grip but the handle is thinner than the nomic and after a few hours start to hurt my finger joints more than the Nomics.

If you get the chance and are more of a Ice climber than a mixed climber I would also recommend keeping the Cassin X-Dreams as a option. I pretty much replaced my Nomics for pure ice with these.

IMHO either tool is great, the Grivels get style points for sure, but you can not go wrong with either of those tools. I would recommend trying both on and see what works for you.
coop Best · · Glenwood Springs, CO · Joined Jan 2005 · Points: 485

I have the new nomics. I'm going to try out a few of the Grivel tools this winter as well as those X Dreams. Thanks for the information and opinion.

seth0687 · · Fort Collins · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 375

I'll take your new nomics off your hands ; ).

Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480
Jeff J wrote: I own a set of 1st gen Nomics and Love them, they climb ice well (better when the cascade pick was available). and dry tool closely second to the BD (green) fusions with the mixed pick, simply based on that the fusion handle is a bit more comfortable on long over hangs,I climb M5 to M6. The Grivles, I had a chance to Demo these this last weekend at an ice fest. They climb ice WI4+ - WI5) quite well. They drytool amazingly well, I like the splattered rubberized grip but the handle is thinner than the nomic and after a few hours start to hurt my finger joints more than the Nomics. If you get the chance and are more of a Ice climber than a mixed climber I would also recommend keeping the Cassin X-Dreams as a option. I pretty much replaced my Nomics for pure ice with these. IMHO either tool is great, the Grivels get style points for sure, but you can not go wrong with either of those tools. I would recommend trying both on and see what works for you.
So you're saying the BD Fusions are really good for mixed? Wanna check those out. I would like to have a pair of tools just for drytooling that aren't another pair of X Dreams. I drop my tools lots when climbing mixed. Too fat for all that crazy M whatever action!
Jon H · · PC, UT · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 118

Here are my impressions on the currently available tools I've climbed with over the years. Ice tools no longer in production are excluded.

Me: 6'2", 185lbs, been ice climbing 5 years, rock climbing for 13 years. Generally climb 30+ days of ice/season.
Lead WI5, M6 on gear, M8 on bolts. Have followed WI6 and TR'ed up to M9.

BD COBRA
One of my favorite all around tools, especially for alpinism. Only sold it because matching on the upper grip causes pick shift which is kinda scary, especially when you're run out. Took it to Chamonix for 3 weeks and was happy with my choice, especially with a set of Aermet picks.

BD VIPER
Like the Cobra but a bit clunkier, heavier, and not as well damped on vibration. Cheaper though.

PETZL NOMIC
Currently have a pair. Great for mixed climbing and even drytooling. Not crazy about them for pure ice, even steep 5+ waterfalls. I find the pick angle too aggressive and rarely get first-swing sticks. This applies across the board using Ice, Dry, and older Cascade picks.

PETZL QUARKS (2nd gen)
Didn't like them at all. Very light, great all around tool, but uncomfortable for my hand, hated the "trigger" and bashed my knuckles more than any other tool. Sold them off after 3-4 days.

PETZL ERGO
Too Ergo for me. Took them to Ouray and up routes like Tic Tac (M6/7) and Seamstress (M8) and the angle was just too aggressive for me. Almost a full "C" shape. They would probably be ideal for pulling through tiered roofs where you have an unstable, blind hook each time you need to pull through, but for consistent 10-deg-past-vertical walls they were a bit awkward. This tool personified the "more is not always better" axiom, at least with regards to ice tool geometry aggressiveness. Stronger climbers (like local NE hardman PCooke who bought them from me) may disagree.

BD FUSION
Mediocre on ice - pick is too steep. Forces you to "chop" unnaturally at the ice in a downward angle instead of swinging in to it horizontally. Great at mixed routes with minimal/thin ice that warrants gentle taps. Even better drytooling/hooking/torquing. Comfortable handle. Haven't had a chance to try out the "Fusion Ice" pick yet so can't comment on that, but I've heard good things.

GRIVEL QUANTUM TECH
My favorite pure ice tool ever. Light, balanced, first-swing sticks almost every single time. Love the picks too - Grivel has the best metallurgy I've yet to encounter. Only complaint is "perceived" fragility - I'm not 100% comfortable torquing on them or even worse, torquing the shaft in a crack. Also it has a poor upper "shelf" for matching but that can be easily fixed with some MacGyver skills. The pinky hook could stand to be a bit bigger (larger radius, to be specific) as well - can be uncomfortable for those with big hands (i.e. me).

GRIVEL CARBON FORCE
Drytooling beast. Climbs like nothing else I've ever used. Would hate to have to climb much ice though. It hooks way better than it swings. The Force Alloy should be better at all around climbing, but I've only held it my hands, never climbed on it.

CONCLUSIONS
It's easy to find a tool to fit a single niche. I'm still loving my Quantums for pure ice and pretty happy with the Nomics for mixed. I have yet to find an ice tool that I truly love for alpine use. If I was going to Chamonix or Canmore tomorrow I would probably take Quantums. Nomics if it was a thin season or objectively knew there would be substantial mixed sections on the routes we're aiming for.

If they could fix the pick shift on the Cobras it would be a one-tool quiver, but that would take a heavy redesign.

For HARD drytooling, get the Grivel Force (Carbon or Alloy) if you've got the coin, otherwise you'll still be very happy with Fusions or Nomics. There are some efficiencies to be gained if your tools share the same pick system. I personally prefer BD picks attachment style (and hate Petzl's) but the Petzl picks generally win overall, so I've got Nomics. The new BD Fuels are interesting and could bring me back to BD if they get it right.

Dane · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 562

this.....when they become available.

Grivel Machine 3.0

Nomic climbs ice extemely well and mixed very well. The Force/Master climbs mixed extremely well and climbs ice if forced.

X-Dream and Mtn are good. More like the Petzl tools. Big fan myself of a new Quark. Not a lot of differerence between them for me climbing, since it has the Nomic's actual head and the majority of the shaft profile.

doligo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 264

Jon, Ergos are an overkill for vertical techy climbs like Seamstress. Nomics would've been better. Ergos are more suitable for overhanging cave climbs

Surprised to hear you didn't like Nomics for pure ice - they are a dream on anything WI4 and above. Especially with a pair fresh out of factory picks, you can climb really cold hard ice, all you need is few mm penetration (this is per Petzl tech guy). The problem with people who are used to climbing on other tools is that they try to drive in the picks too deep.

The Blueprint Part Dank · · FEMA Region VIII · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 460
Jon H wrote: BD COBRA One of my favorite all around tools, especially for alpinism. Only sold it because matching on the upper grip causes pick shift which is kinda scary, especially when you're run out.
I've noticed this as well, the upper pinky rest is both too small and has mediocre balance.
Garret Nuzzo Jones · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 1,436

I originally had the latest generation Quarks, loved them for steep ice but the upper grip was garbage and broke on me. Switched to Nomics and climbed all last season on them. They're a great all-around tool but the picks leave something to be desired for ice. Bought X-Dreams this season and I've never had so many one-hit sticks before. You can rail them into the ice with no trouble and they clean easily. The grip and structure takes a minute to get used to since it's so heavily recessed.

C Williams · · Sketchy, Blackvanistan · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 1,556

^^^^ What Jon H said!

In addition the Grivel Matrix Tech climbs ice like the Quantum but has a stronger shaft for mixed. I highly recommend them for pure ice up to WI 5. Also check out the DMM Apex. They climb similar to the Nomic but have a straight grip allowing for better alpine performance IMO. The Apex is a bit too aggressive on anything less than WI 4 but I found they hook like a dream on steep ice and mixed.

Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480

Thanks Jon! I appreciate all the information.. Lots to think about. I agree with everything you said about tools I've used. sounds like you haven't tried the X-dreams. You can try mine if you return my email. Haha.

Dane, Nomics are great but the X Dreams and All Mtns are good? To each their own I guess.

Doligo, I thought the Ergos were sweet on WI4. I thought crazy angle of the shaft would limit performance but the design worked well on ice for me. I felt the Ergos really shine when using them to gain the ice at the end of a mixed pitch.

Garret, Finally someone says the same thing I do about the X Dreams! Haha

coop Best · · Glenwood Springs, CO · Joined Jan 2005 · Points: 485

Thank you all for your opinions and information, it is very helpful. I stopped in Ouray Mountain Sports again today and checked out there great stock of tools. I think I'm going to try a pair of the Quantum Techs for pure waterfall ice this year. I have really enjoyed my 2nd gen nomics thus far, but they seem to be more suited for mixed climbing.

Jeff Johnston · · Bozeman, MT · Joined Sep 2010 · Points: 110
Kirby1013 wrote: So you're saying the BD Fusions are really good for mixed? Wanna check those out. I would like to have a pair of tools just for drytooling that aren't another pair of X Dreams. I drop my tools lots when climbing mixed. Too fat for all that crazy M whatever action!
IMHO - I really like the fusions for dry tooling, the titan pick is quite durable, they excel on the rock way over how the fusions do on the ice.
There are other tools out there that are splendid as well, but the Fusion handle really fits my hand well and is comfortable for extended overhanging climbs. The tool hooks dime edges well for me and feel secure. I have used my X-dreams and Nomics as well they do just fine but I just like the Fusion the most for dry routes. The X-dream climbs Ice way better but on rock I find that the pick really take a beating on rock. BD's titan pick last much longer. That my 2 cents anywho
The Blueprint Part Dank · · FEMA Region VIII · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 460

I agree with the consensus here about the Fusions on ice, hell, Black Diamond even knows this, hence the new Fuel tools. But I've always found it interesting that when I see videos of Josh Wharton alpine climbing he oftentimes uses the Fusions, even in situations where he's opted to use crampons with horizontal front points. Obviously, the dude is way better at climbing than any of us. But still, seems like he would have noticed the same limitations we all have.

But again, dude it a beast, he could probably get up WI6 with two ball pin hammers and a pair of Yak Traks...

Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480
Jeff J wrote: IMHO - I really like the fusions for dry tooling, the titan pick is quite durable, they excel on the rock way over how the fusions do on the ice. There are other tools out there that are splendid as well, but the Fusion handle really fits my hand well and is comfortable for extended overhanging climbs. The tool hooks dime edges well for me and feel secure. I have used my X-dreams and Nomics as well they do just fine but I just like the Fusion the most for dry routes. The X-dream climbs Ice way better but on rock I find that the pick really take a beating on rock. BD's titan pick last much longer. That my 2 cents anywho
I appreciate your 2 cents! I also have noticed that Cassin picks don't stay sharp as long as others. I thought it was due the fact that when I get desperate I start taking a swing at the rock. Well it's probably that too.

Blueprint.. When you're a pro you use what the sponsor tells you! Haha
Dane · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 562
Blueprint wrote:I agree with the consensus here about the Fusions on ice, hell, Black Diamond even knows this, hence the new Fuel tools...
Fuel prototypes have been around at least since 2011/2012 when I first saw them in SLC. Looks unchanged for the most part other than the typical bitches about the Fusion 2. I wouldn't get your hopes up that the Fuel is any better on ice than the Fusion 2 is now. More open pommel, no hammer on the head to unbalance it and an option in BD picks is still not going to make a Fusion/Fuel a Nomic or a X Dream on ice.

Nice new paint job though. Those horizontal front points? Often a better choice on the typical Canadian WI6 than vertical fronts btw.
Garret Nuzzo Jones · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 1,436
Kirby1013 wrote: I appreciate your 2 cents! I also have noticed that Cassin picks don't stay sharp as long as others. I thought it was due the fact that when I get desperate I start taking a swing at the rock. Well it's probably that too. Blueprint.. When you're a pro you use what the sponsor tells you! Haha
The Cassin picks are thin and fairly small. Definitely an advantage on ice but if you compare them to the Nomic picks, they're notably more delicate. I find the Cassin picks displace less ice in general.

Once my Petzl picks were filed down a bit and more shaped they performed quite a bit better. Not sure why they're so crappy right out of the box.

The Cassin picks are $10-15 cheaper than Petzl picks, which is nice too.
Dane · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 562

Petzl's original Cascade picks changed a couple of seasons ago to a DRY and a ICE pick. Neither are as good on ice IMO as the original Cascade pick was. The newer picks were designed to improve their ability on mixed. The re-design wasn't a big help on pure water ice. Too much hook on the front tooth is part of the cause. But not all. Angle changed as well. It got steeper. To help hooking on hard mixed as well. Both new Petzl picks are T rated now. The Cascade wasn't T rated but performed like a T pick in the field and would out perform and out last anything that was currently available at the time.

Picks are always a trade off. Super thin and sticks in ice are easier. Too much tooth and angle they are sticky getting out but sticky to keep you on with a minimal placement. Thin picks don't last long and need resharpening often. Thick picks last for ever but are dismal on ice. They shatter what is there for ice and keep you swinging too long to get a good stick.

The real issue climbing ice is how quickly you get a stick and how easy that stick is to get back out. Repeat. Waste time and energy and you strength eventually goes. Doesn't matter if you are climbing 3s or 6s. Same issues. Durability comes into play once you start climbing a lot or doing mixed. "Pick" the options most important to you and your own use or pocket book. Usually it becomes a combination of all those things.

Any of the new tools climb ice well enough no matter what brand, including the Fusion. Some are marginally easier to use than others. Learn how to use any specific tool (including a old Chouinard Piolet) and they will all climb better than most anyone using them is capable.

Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480

Oh boy, I know it's coming.. The ol Fancy ice tools don't matter if your footwork is there comment! Wait for it.. Wait for it..

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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