Petzl Ergos for pure ice?

So, I'm considering getting either the Nomics or the Ergos. I'd love to get the Ergos, as I know they'd perform better on steep terrain, especially dry tooling. However, I'm just not certain if they'd be any good on pure waterfall ice in the WI4-5 range. I know for a fact that the Nomics excel on this terrain, and also that they are pretty good for steep mixed as well. I'd have no problem getting the Nomics, but I don't want to miss out on the Ergos' advantages if they can perform equally as well (or close) on pure ice. I guess what I'm asking is, I know the Nomics can do both. But I also know the Ergos would do mixed better. Can they also compete with the Nomics on pure ice?

I've read Dane's Cold Thistle blog posts about the Ergos. He claims that they perform well on pure ice, even on moderate terrain (see here for example). I tend to trust his opinion. However, I have read in other places that the Ergos are not very good in pure ice for a few reasons (or at the very least, they take a lot of adjustment to get used to).

I'd like to hear from anyone out there who may have an educated opinion on this. Do you own a pair of Ergos or have you used them in pure ice? What did you think? If I can only have one pair, would I be better off getting Nomics or Ergos for WI4-5 and mixed climbing up to M9ish?

Thanks!

coldthistle.blogspot.com/20…

Dru/Ergo

Others seen to be of the same opinion. Video of the Ergo being used on hard mixed and lots of moderate ice, Dru Couloir. Local Cham climbers, who could be using Nomics or Ergos.

Steck use a Nomic in one hand and a Quark in the other to free the same climb around that time as well. Tough choice with so many good tools.

Dane, now that is interesting. I hadn't seen that post. Seems like he climbs a hell of a lot of terrain with Ergos.

I'm just wondering, though, if they will be close to the Nomics on steep ice pitches alone? Don't they connect with vertical ice too early because of the extreme shaft angle?

Does anyone else have mileage on pure ice with Ergos?

I've found that the key with the ergos on ice is making use of their clearance. This just means you have to aim for spots that are at slightly lower angle relative to the ice around. It's really something you should be doing anyway for more secure placements but the ergos require it. The reason behind this is easy to see if you hold an ergo up to a vertical wall. With the pommel against the wall, the front of the pick (the flat part) is close to parallel with the wall, meaning that best case scenario on perfect ice without any texture, you are trying to force a flat piece of metal instead of a point into the ice. This is just a function of the aggressive angle of the shaft. Case and point, it doesn't work well and I would say this is way more of a problem than the tool "getting to the ice to early." You get used to that in a jiff.

Luckily though, ice is never perfect and there is nearly always a lower angle spot to aim for and it doesn't take much at all. A tiny divot seems to be enough and where there isn't, it's usually on low angle terrain where your crampons are doing all the work anyway. I do find though, when you can't find a proper placement, the tool tends to let you know by a good jarring to the hand. I imagine this will work itself out as I use the tool more but it's something to think about.

I used to own Cobras (the newest ones) and was content with them until I swung a pair of Nomics and was blown away by how natural they felt in comparison. I think a lot of that has to do with the pick weights and how they shift (getting scientific here) the vertical axis of rotation towards the front of the pick. Hold an ergo or nomic vertically and twist it about its vertical axis and you might feel the difference as compared to a tool without weights. So when your pick isn't perfectly perpendicular to the ice, it's less likely that the tool will rotate and glance of to the side when it hits. Call me crazy but this and the simple fact that both tools have more head weight allows me to relax my wrist as the tool nears the ice way more than I ever was able to do with the cobra.

Back to the Ergo vs Nomic discussion. I was in exactly the same situation as you were. I loved the feel of the nomics but here was Dane saying the ergos were his favorite all around tool. I gambled on Dane's well grounded advice, bought the ergos and am happy. I still prefer the swing of the nomic as it takes less juice from your wrist to get the things moving but both tools give you that ability to relax your wrist as the tool is about to hit the ice and that is key for me. Are ergos as good as nomics for pure ice? They definitely shine on vertical ice. They slow down the pump clock, hook beautifully, and swing well if you know where to swing them. I don't think they are as good as nomics on lower angle terrain but they do work. Obviously your decision has a lot to do with the terrain you'll be climbing but if I had to do it over again, I would still buy the ergos.

Thanks! That was quite helpful. Much appreciated.

Air Alexy wrote:Don't they connect with vertical ice too early because of the extreme shaft angle?

Keep-it-real should be writing reviews. Well done.

If you look close in the Dru video both climbers use the higher, second grip on the moderate ice. The Ergo climbs pretty much like a Nomic in that position. On steeper stuff the extreme angled shaft allows you to hook in places that a Nomic won't with amazing/more security. More hooking = less effort.

Is the Ergo a better tool on moderate ice? No. But the advantages of the Ergo on hard mixed and steep ice make up for the slightly annoying behaviour on moderate ice. No question the Ergo is an aquired taste, but statements like, "they connect with vertical ice too early because of the extreme shaft angle." comes from climber's speculation looking at them in the store, not climbing on them.

The Nomic was a very extreme (high clearence) tool when it first came out. Everyone was surprised how quickly it was adopted for other styles of climbing. The Ergo is in a similar situation. The Dru Coulior video should be a wake up call as to where the Ergo is/will be getting used as the word and tools gets out.

Having Petzl mess up the pommel on the first gen Ergo II (2nd gen Nomic) and miss a full season of climbing didn't help get the word out on where teh Ergo will excel.

I still have Nomics and use them. But if I were to get rid of tools, the Ergos would be the last to go. I know they will do anything the Nomic will easy enough and then some.

I'm another one who's drank the ergo koolaid, and damn is it sweet! Dane's comments are what pushed me over the edge to take the initial plunge and I'm glad I did.

Keep-it-real hit a lot of good points that I would have made as well about the swing. It's not too far off from the nomic swing though imo, although I never owned nomics and have just swung them a few times so I may be wrong, YMMV.

I don't climb crazy mixed lines or overhanging stuff, just vertical and less, but I absolutely love these tools. They're a little different to get used to, but once it clicked I fell in love. I've had little to no problem with using them to climb low angle to vertical water and alpine ice. They come with me on any sort of climb where tools are required, ice cragging or alpine alike and I've never had any regrets. Very fun and easy tool to use, even for beginners in my experience.

Try a pair and you won't be disappointed.

Now this is interesting :
tribevine.com/product/4516/…
tribevine.com/product/10835…

Old thread that popped up again yesterday. Likely worth the read.

iceclimbingforums.com/showt…

Sorry in advance for the thread drift.

Keep it Real had a good point about the pick weights. I've been experimenting the last two days with a set of damascus pick weights I made for my Vipers. I found that the tool with the weight was a consistently better performer. Swings were more precise, required less effort, and felt more solid. I especially liked the extra weight in confined spaces where my swing was limited. I think the pick weight is a big reason the Nomics swing so well.

Dobson wrote:damascus pick weights

please elaborate.

"I think the pick weight is a big reason the Nomics swing so well."

It is part of it. But The Nomic get used a lot on alpine ice/Neve without the pick weights. The major reason the Nomic swings so much better than most other tools (and why the Quark and Ergo do as well) is the head balance. There is nothing behind the head to cause undue rotation of the pick in the swing. Add weight up front on the pick and it will help any tool. Which is why framing hammers have all the weight on the striking side where the hammer face is or a ice tool's pick would be.

Same reason *in part* as to why the new Fusion II sucks when swinging it on ice. Wonderful for hooking though. Too much weight in the hammer which is behind the shaft and always wants to rotate when striking. Good tools are at worse equally balanced and at best pick side heavy.

You can easily drill BD picks and add Petzl pick weights. Takes 10 min per pair with a good drill bit. But from the feed back I have gotten most find it simply results in over driven picks and a heavier than required tool. Teh end resutl is old school, "he man", ice tools. Generally tools need to be better balanced, not heavier to perform well. That is why the Nomic gets its rave reviews.

I have a friend who has both Ergos and Nomics, and I never see him bring out the Ergos. Revealed preference?