Personal Preference

This kind of compliments what my last thread turned into.

On a multipitch climb, after setting a belay anchor and when the leader is about to take off to lead the 2nd, 3rd, and so on pitches, do you run the rope through your anchor? So another way of putting it would be that if the leader falls before their first piece, would they fall on you or the anchor?

I'll generally build an anchor and try to clove myself in (on 1 locker, not 2, haha) with a couple feet of rope between me and the anchor. Then I'll clip a draw to the strongest piece of the anchor and have the climber clip to that draw. That gives a good 5' of rope in the system to help absorb a fall.

Another safer and better option is, as you're finishing your pitch, to climb 5-10 feet ABOVE where you want to place your anchor, place a piece, then downclimb back to your anchor spot and get to work. That way, you already have your "jesus nut" placed and pre-clipped for the next lead. Obviously, this technique can only be used when the topography of the climb supports it.

The only time I've thought it really mattered are on hard ice leads being protected with stubbies. Then we just make sure not to fall.

Factor 2 falls are so rare in climbing that there is very little data to suggest best practices. Jim Titt of Bolt Products just released a comprehensive belay device study (which BTW shows that the Munter Hitch is far and away, by a TREMENDOUS factor, the best and strongest belay device. Most multi-purpose too) that shows a factor 2 fall is almost certainly impossible to hold with a bare hand. Rope burns are virtually guaranteed, further implying, that if your climber takes a factor 2 directly onto your ATC, there's a tremendously high chance you'll instinctively let go, dropping the climber to... his death, I suppose. According to Jim's research, even a fall factor in the mid 1's runs a risk of rope burns to the hand.

Based on that, I'll almost always try and have the climber clipped to the strongest leg of the anchor.

Here is the link to the above-referenced study. It is comprehensive and contains a tremendous amount of data on bolts, bolting media, and climbing hardwear, including belay devices. The belay device section is all the way at the end so scroll down.

You'll probably need to have taken a class in statistics to understand it all. I certainly didn't get 100% of it on the first read through.

bolt-products.com/Glue-inBo…

Quick answer: on the anchor.

Long answer: You always want some protection between leader and belayer. Otherwise If you were to fall you would cause the belay device to be yanked downwards creating a myriad of problems. The belayer would probably lose the brake strand and you would fall to your doom. Also with the belay device and rope swinging violently downwards across your belayer's legs they may become injured (gashes from metal edges, rope burns, etc.). Also lets say you climbed straight up from belayer with the rope from their harness to you with no peices between. Now if you fell backwards and managed to miss them by going behind them the rope would probably catch one of their shoulders and do massive damage as their body is now the topmost anchor.

Jon- I like the idea of climbing up a little higher then placing a piece of pro, but the way I'm visualizing it, that is time consuming unless your block leading. And it may not be easy and time efficient to downclimb hard stuff. Am I wrong?

Choss- I would think as long as a belayer is prepared, the most likely thing would be that the belayer bashes a knee from getting pulled. This to me, combined with the fact factor 2 falls onto the belay anchor are very rare, seems like it is worth the extra risk if that puts less force onto your last line of defense anchor.

Whatcha think?

JJ Brunner wrote:Jon- I like the idea of climbing up a little higher then placing a piece of pro, but the way I'm visualizing it, that is time consuming unless your block leading. And it may not be easy and time efficient to downclimb hard stuff. Am I wrong? Choss- I would think as long as a belayer is prepared, the most likely thing would be that the belayer bashes a knee from getting pulled. This to me, combined with the fact factor 2 falls onto the belay anchor are very rare, seems like it is worth the extra risk if that puts less force onto your last line of defense anchor. Whatcha think?

Factor 2 falls are only rare because everyone clips into the high/strong piece of the anchor. That way when falls happen at the start of the pitch, there is no FF2.

People fall on the opening moves of climbs all the time. Moves at the start of a pitch are not inherently easier than anywhere else. That's why we clip into the anchor.

The climb past/set pro/downclimb method has its place - the most ideal is when there's a crux right at the start of the next pitch. By climbing past and setting a piece, should you fall while doing so, it's going to be a very low fall factor (you've got an entire rope length below you). If you just go about business as normal, you're risking a FF2 (or very harsh fall in general) in case you slip, a hold breaks, you mess up the beta, etc. at the crux. You also need to be able to downclimb the section - if it involves a big dyno, you probably shouldn't try it (unless your belayer just lowers you off the high piece down to the anchor zone).

I'm not trying to insult you, but I remember you posting a "I just did my first trad lead" last November - less than a year ago. I've been leading about 5-6 years, climbing for 10. Several other people here have been putting up hard routes longer than either you or I have been alive. Everyone is telling you the same thing. There's a reason for it.

Belaying off your anchor is a bad idea if you think your partner has a chance of falling. Supporting another human off your crotch is damn uncomfortable - I learned that the hard way. You're continually mentioning "saving time" as the reasoning behind ideas that everyone is telling you they've already tried and had no success, yet you insist on futzing with extra biners and slings for additional security that nearly everyone agrees isn't necessary. I simply don't understand your logic.

My desire to be a good climber is only eclipsed by my desire to (one day) be an old climber. I hope you share the same sentiment.

Jon H wrote: Factor 2 falls are only rare because everyone clips into the high/strong piece of the anchor. That way when falls happen at the start of the pitch, there is no FF2. People fall on the opening moves of climbs all the time. Moves at the start of a pitch are not inherently easier than anywhere else. That's why we clip into the anchor. The climb past/set pro/downclimb method has its place - the most ideal is when there's a crux right at the start of the next pitch. By climbing past and setting a piece, should you fall while doing so, it's going to be a very low fall factor (you've got an entire rope length below you). If you just go about business as normal, you're risking a FF2 (or very harsh fall in general) in case you slip, a hold breaks, you mess up the beta, etc. at the crux. You also need to be able to downclimb the section - if it involves a big dyno, you probably shouldn't try it (unless your belayer just lowers you off the high piece down to the anchor zone). I'm not trying to insult you, but I remember you posting a "I just did my first trad lead" last November - less than a year ago. I've been leading about 5-6 years, climbing for 10. Several other people here have been putting up hard routes longer than either you or I have been alive. Everyone is telling you the same thing. There's a reason for it. Belaying off your anchor is a bad idea if you think your partner has a chance of falling. Supporting another human off your crotch is damn uncomfortable - I learned that the hard way. You're continually mentioning "saving time" as the reasoning behind ideas that everyone is telling you they've already tried and had no success, yet you insist on futzing with extra biners and slings for additional security that nearly everyone agrees isn't necessary. I simply don't understand your logic. My desire to be a good climber is only eclipsed by my desire to (one day) be an old climber. I hope you share the same sentiment.

First off, no offense taken.

Personally, if I was concerned about falling right off the bat, I wouldn't clip into the anchor, and if I could I would place a seperate piece preferably right above the anchor. Maybe if I was climbing really hard and was concerned about falling RIGHT above the anchor where it would make a big difference fall factor wise if I ran the rope through a piece I would consider it. But I don't climb that hard right now.

Wow only last November? :/ Not to insult everyone, but just because they've been climbing for 30 years with a method, doesn't mean it will be the safest and most efficient way for me. I'm trying to find my own path, and hearing the advice of other seasoned climbers helps. That is why I post what I post.

I may be overstressing the time factor. At the point I'm at, it's not a big deal to throw a few extra steps in at belays. Always having 2 lockers on my powerpoint is my preference right now. Others think otherwise as I've learned, and I still think they climb perfectly safe. But I stand by my argument about the sling. If my last line of defense anchor had one sling on it, and I had the oppurtunity to spend even as much as a few minutes to set up a redundant system I would. If I didn't have that chance, I would climb above that 1 sling knowing it's most likely good enough. All I'm saying is given a reasonable oppurtunity, I like to shoot for the idea of redundancy that's been around for who knows how long.

I'll give you the liberal arts answer:

It all depends on the people and circumstances involved.

Place a piece above your anchor while still at the anchor if you can and are worried about falling.

Clip into the strongest anchor piece if you can't.

Don't fall if you didn't do one of the above.

My answer is "sometimes". If it seems remotely possible that the climber could fall and directly on the belay, then yes. Otherwise I would opt for a high but bomber piece of gear that is in or just above the anchor. If i do run through the master point, once the climber has a few good pieces in, i usually remove it from the master point to make the belaying easier.

EDIT - Either way, i have the high piece clipped.

JJ Brunner wrote: Personally, if I was concerned about falling right off the bat, I wouldn't clip into the anchor, and if I could I would place a seperate piece preferably right above the anchor. Maybe if I was climbing really hard and was concerned about falling RIGHT above the anchor where it would make a big difference fall factor wise if I ran the rope through a piece I would consider it.

I personally would still clip into a high piece in the anchor, assuming that its bomber then proceed to place gear as needed. I had a situation a couple of years ago where my buddy and I were on a multipitch sport route and he took a 20 footer onto a bolt that was just left of the anchor. I was belaying with a reverso and I held his fall, but my brake hand was all cut up from being pinched between my body and the rock and dragged by the fall. I guess it depends on the route, the gear and your confidence level, but I usually clip into a high piece in the anchor for piece of mind that I wont be factor 2ing my belayer. One thing to add, your belayer could remove a draw from the high anchor piece if you are worried about rope drag when you have more gear under you.

SlowTrad wrote:I think most if not all "experts" would recomend clipping the anchor before venturing off on lead so as to avoid falling directly onto the belayer. Unless you are making extremely sketchy anchors, why wouldn't you clip it??? Your best protection from injury is your climbing ability, the second is your skill in contructing good anchors, either belay or running. If you are afraid to clip your belay anchor as your first point of protection, perhaps you should re-evaluate the stoutness of your anchor and skill in placing protection. I can't think of one good reason NOT to clip the belay anchor as your first piece if there isn't an obvious and bomber placement just off of the anchor.

I'm not afraid to clip my anchor. I just think it is more comfortable and better in theory to not clip the anchor. I never plan on falling right away and if I'm worried about it, I'll place an early piece of pro. I don't really have anything against clipping the master point but

I would try to avoid clipping a single piece of the belay anchor. Someone on this site just quoted someone saying 1 in 20 cams fail. I would much rather put the load on my kind of equalized anchor than on one piece that could possibly fail and leave the belayer to catch a fall directly on their harness with one less piece for the belay anchor. That's my thought anyways.

JJ Brunner wrote: I'm not afraid to clip my anchor. I just think it is more comfortable and better in theory to not clip the anchor. I never plan on falling right away and if I'm worried about it, I'll place an early piece of pro. I don't really have anything against clipping the master point but I would try to avoid clipping a single piece of the belay anchor. Someone on this site just quoted someone saying 1 in 20 cams fail. I would much rather put the load on my kind of equalized anchor than on one piece that could possibly fail and leave the belayer to catch a fall directly on their harness with one less piece for the belay anchor. That's my thought anyways.

Why is it better in theory to not clip your anchor? I never plan on falling EVER but does that mean I don't place pro? You talk about redundancy but you argue the opposite. Redundancy does not occur just in a belay anchor. It occurs every time you clip a piece of gear. So if you clip your anchor then place a piece 6 feet up from it there is your redundancy. Also when I build a belay anchor I typically make secure enough placements to trust any part of my system as an independent piece. If you don't trust clipping to any of your placements on your anchor individually then you need to either get more practice or find a new spot for your anchor.

• edit*

Who gives a crap about your belayers comfort they aren't leading the pitch! Make them suffer a little bit as you freak on a 20 foot runout over a tiny stopper! Hehe.

Choss Chasin' wrote: Why is it better in theory to not clip your anchor? I never plan on falling EVER but does that mean I don't place pro? You talk about redundancy but you argue the opposite. Redundancy does not occur just in a belay anchor. It occurs every time you clip a piece of gear. So if you clip your anchor then place a piece 6 feet up from it there is your redundancy. Also when I build a belay anchor I typically make secure enough placements to trust any part of my system as an independent piece. If you don't trust clipping to any of your placements on your anchor individually then you need to either get more practice or find a new spot for your anchor. *edit* Who gives a crap about your belayers comfort they aren't leading the pitch! Make them suffer a little bit as you freak on a 20 foot runout over a tiny stopper! Hehe.

I'm trying to talk about redundancy solely in the belay anchor. I keep saying I understand that you can't always being redundant but people seem to keep bringing that up as reasons to not be redundant where you can with your belay anchor.

People also seem to bring up the idea that I don't trust my placements. I do. But $hit happens. A bomber-looking textbook placement isn't guaranteed to hold. You wouldn't want to be thousands of feet in the air held solely by 1 placement. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but just that it's undesirable.

90% of my multipitch is done swinging leads...which means ~50% of my time is spent belaying!

no one on here seems to agree with your general multipitch system(s), but we defer to your experience and logic good sir

alexanderblum wrote:no one on here seems to agree with your general multipitch system(s), but we defer to your experience and logic good sir

Ok, I'll just take 10 people's advice as this represents the entire climbing community's opinion...

How I climb is my and whomever I climb withs concern. I use this forum for input on my climbing style. It doesn't mean I'm going to climb just like you. I do what works for me, if you have a problem with that...well...(to keep this post rated PG) bug off.

no problem whatsoever, i just find the seeking of advice then immediate dismissal of said advice when it doesnt agree with your own paradigms pretty amusing

I'm not really dismissing anything. I take everything in store it in my mind, so even if it doesn't work best in my mind, I can try it on a climb to see what happens.

For something like the idea of clipping your strongest piece of the belay anchor as the first piece, it has pros and cons. Most things being recommended to me are things I've already considered but came to the conclusion that it doesn't work best for me.

I take these recommendations into consideration, but unless they're backed up by a mind-blowing reason to change my method, I'm probably not going to make any significant changes to my routine unless something in the real world(not the internet) gives me reason.

alexanderblum wrote:no problem whatsoever, i just find the seeking of advice then immediate dismissal of said advice when it doesnt agree with your own paradigms pretty amusing

And my "if you have a problem with that...you can bug off" wasn't directed at you, I've just been feeling a my-way-is-the-right-way vibe on here lately... :)

clip the master point

or

clip your best piece

or

clip your highest piece

or

place and clip a new piece soon after starting your lead.

Avoid fall factor 2's at all costs. Fall factor is very significant in determining forces on your gear. Do everything you can to keep fall factors low. If you fall factor 2 onto your anchor you just hit it with worst case scenario. If it fails, you both die.

Fall factor 2's are rare because most experienced climbers know how bad they are and do everything they can to avoid them. The guys in Tahquitz a few year ago didn't. They are dead now.

Did I just log into rc.com?

Greg D wrote:clip the master point or clip your best piece or clip your highest piece or place and clip a new piece soon after starting your lead. Avoid fall factor 2's at all costs. Fall factor is very significant in determining forces on your gear. Do everything you can to keep fall factors low. If you fall factor 2 onto your anchor you just hit it with worst case scenario. If it fails, you both die. Fall factor 2's are rare because most experienced climbers know how bad they are and do everything they can to avoid them. The guys in Tahquitz a few year ago didn't. They are dead now.

The only problem I have with clipping a piece of the anchor rather than the anchor(that should be decently equalized) is if that piece fails, you are taking a factor 2 onto a weaker anchor.

If you just clip the master point, unless you are belaying a good distance below it, I wouldn't think that would really change the fall factor. I would think the only thing it would do is change the direction of force on the belayer (and theoretically put more force on the anchor depending on the belay stance).

Here are my solutions, hear me out! 1. Place a seperate piece right above the anchor and clip the rope through that. 2. Make your anchor with one additional piece of pro than you deem necessary and clip that making sure if it fails, the anchor is not extended. 3. If you're very confident you wont fall, lead on and get a piece soon either running the rope through the masterpoint or straight off your harness(the belayer should know what to expect as far as the direction of belay goes if the leader falls)

Whatcha think? I would think the extra piece of pro isn't a problem unless you're way above where I climb at or in an alpine environment where you shouldn't expect to fall anyways.

As far as the rc.com comment....I'm trying to turn this into a nice debate but nobody seems to agree with me(which is fine) but not many people are willing to treat my different routine with respect (so it seems). Still, it's not on the rc.com level...