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Over lap of mastercam and c4s
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By Jeremy Riesberg
From Minneapolis, MN
Nov 29, 2012
Palisaid, SD.

I have a rack of camelots down to size .5. I have been looking at getting mastercams to use as my small cams, they feel so much better than c3s. My question is do I need to get a number #3 mastercam or a .4 c4 to cover the size range? Looking at the usable ranges of those cams, it looks like I'm covered. I would love to hear your feedback on the issue. If you use the combination of those two cams, it would be awesome to hear what your rack looks like. Thanks.


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By Matt N
From Santa Barbara, CA
Nov 29, 2012
OTL

I just picked up a .4 for a double of my yellow and orange mastercams (seems a tiny bit smaller than the orange on the bigger end, although perfect overlap on paper). I've also got the red mastercam to offer a smaller head placement vs the .5 c4. This gives me options and doubles. If you have the $ or the need, go for the overlap.

If you just want singles, get up to an orange mastercam and you'll be set. A go-to size for sure and where the smaller head width really starts to benefit.


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By ian watson
From Albuquerque, NM
Nov 29, 2012

Matt N wrote:
I just picked up a .4 for a double of my yellow and orange mastercams (seems a tiny bit smaller than the orange on the bigger end, although perfect overlap on paper). I've also got the red mastercam to offer a smaller head placement vs the .5 c4. This gives me options and doubles. If you have the $ or the need, go for the overlap. If you just want singles, get up to an orange mastercam and you'll be set. A go-to size for sure and where the smaller head width really starts to benefit.



This is all correct, I really like the master cams under the 1 c4 I use red #4 and black #5 mastercams If you just want below a .5 BD get the orange #3 master cam. If you go down to the small sizes I like the 00 tcu over the 00 mastercam the 0 mastercam is fine.


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By Tradoholic
Nov 29, 2012

Range is shorter for the MasterCams, it goes Blue #1 MC then Yellow #2MC = BD.3 roughly speaking. Personally I only recommend the Blue MC and Yellow MC.


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By mugsy
Nov 29, 2012

Here is a list [of my rack] in order from smallest to largest:
Grey C3

Purple C3
Black Alien

Green C3
Blue Alien

Red C3
Blue Metolius
Green Alien

Yellow C3
Yellow Metolius

Yellow Alien
Grey C4

Grey Alien
Orange Metolius

Red Alien
Purple C4

Red Metolius
Green C4

Cams are grouped with like sizes.

Personally, I like a set of Aliens+C3s or Mastercams+C3s. I like the orange MC because it's much more durable than the grey Alien. I bring the 0.4 c4 often, but usually reach for a Mastercam or Alien first.
Not a fan of the 0.3 c4.


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By Jeremy Riesberg
From Minneapolis, MN
Nov 29, 2012
Palisaid, SD.

This is the specs I cam off with for the usable ranges.
Camalot C4:
.4 Grey 0.65 - 0.85
.5 Purple 0.85 - 1.1

Mastercam:
#2 Yellow 0.62 - 0.89
#3 Orange 0.74 - 1.04

Looking at those numbers, it shows that I really could just save myself the cash. Also, what's it that you guys dislike about the smaller C4s? I personally don't like how much the larger master cams flex when I engage the trigger.

I used these two sites as my references:
Mastercam range
C4 range


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By Superclimber
Nov 29, 2012

I've been using Master Cams for 2-3 years and I'm very happy with them. Especially in the sizes blue, yellow, orange, and red. Although I have a complete set those are my favorites. If carrying a single rack I usually go with Master Cams purple thru red and C4s .75 thru 3. If carrying a double rack I carry the .3, .4 , and .5 also. However, I'm currently trading out those sizes for Totem Basics. In my opinion the .3 and .4 are not very useful because the heads are too wide for the sizes. I have mixed feelings about the .5.

To answer your question, I agree with Matt N above. If you only want sizes below the .5 C4 I would suggest going with orange, yellow, blue, and maybe purple. Although the size ranges of the orange mc and the .5 overlap quite a bit on paper, the orange fits in smaller placements in real life use. If you went with just the yellow mc and the .5 you would have a gap in your system.


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By mugsy
Nov 29, 2012

Jeremy Riesberg wrote:
This is the specs I cam off with for the usable ranges. Camalot C4: .4 Grey 0.65 - 0.85 .5 Purple 0.85 - 1.1 Mastercam: #2 Yellow 0.62 - 0.89 #3 Orange 0.74 - 1.04 Looking at those numbers, it shows that I really could just save myself the cash. Also, what's it that you guys dislike about the smaller C4s? I personally don't like how much the larger master cams flex when I engage the trigger. I used these two sites as my references: Mastercam range C4 range


In the smaller sizes, you can't really go buy manufacturer stated ranges. The small cam placements are affected by many other factors than range constraints.


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By Superclimber
Nov 29, 2012

mugsy wrote:
In the smaller sizes, you can't really go buy manufacturer stated ranges. The small cam placements are affected by many other factors than range constraints.

Ageed.


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By David Appelhans
From Lafayette
Nov 29, 2012
Imaginate

Chris Miller wrote:
If you went with just the yellow mc and the .5 you would have a gap in your system.


I use blue, yellow and then go to .5 C4 and don't find the gap noticable. There are a few placements where a .4 c4 fits perfect but the yellow mastercam is a little tipped out, but it is very uncommon and the yellow still fits, it is just not as good.

I realized a few years ago when I was taking the orange tcu and two .5 c4's that I was actually bringing a triple rack not a double rack. You don't really need three cams in that size. In my opinion most people weight themselves down with way too many cams in the overlap sizes.


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By Will S
From Joshua Tree
Nov 29, 2012

David Appelhans wrote:
I use blue, yellow and then go to .5 C4 and don't find the gap noticable.


First placement on L. Baskerville Crack, at the end of the section that gets it an "R" rating, is too big for yellow metolius and too small for .5 C4, orange metolius tcu is bomber. There is a gap, and it can really matter.

Head width can also be make or break, middle of the mild runout on Judas will take a solid yellow C3 in a pod, but the pod is too shallow for anything else in that range (i.e. yellow alien, yellow metolius).

Placement protecting the beginning of the crux on L. Ski Track...bomber red tcu in a pod, sketchy anything else of the same size in that pod.

I could probably list a dozen more given a little time to think on it, but those come to mind immediately. A mixed rack is an asset IMO.


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By JCM
From Golden, CO
Nov 29, 2012

David Appelhans wrote:
I use blue, yellow and then go to .5 C4 and don't find the gap noticable.


I disagree with this


Will S wrote:
First placement on L. Baskerville Crack, at the end of the section that gets it an "R" rating, is too big for yellow metolius and too small for .5 C4, orange metolius tcu is bomber. There is a gap, and it can really matter... A mixed rack is an asset IMO.


I agree with this.

David Appelhans wrote:
I realized a few years ago when I was taking the orange tcu and two .5 c4's that I was actually bringing a triple rack not a double rack. You don't really need three cams in that size. In my opinion most people weight themselves down with way too many cams in the overlap sizes.


This is true, though; there is some tripling-up there due to overlap between Orange Metloius and BD 0.5. I have found that my options are better is I get rid of the second BD 0.5 and keep the orange Metoloius. YMMV


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By David Appelhans
From Lafayette
Nov 29, 2012
Imaginate

Jon Moen wrote:
I get rid of the second BD 0.5 and keep the orange Metoloius. YMMV


This is actually what I have switched to doing for the last year as well.


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By Superclimber
Nov 29, 2012

We should argue about shoes next!


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By David Appelhans
From Lafayette
Nov 29, 2012
Imaginate

Chris Miller wrote:
We should argue about shoes next!

TC pros suck! just kidding love them.


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By Superclimber
Nov 29, 2012

David Appelhans wrote:
TC pros suck! just kidding love them.

Me too.


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By Darren Mabe
From Flagstaff, AZ
Nov 29, 2012
wham bam hand jam. Wrapping up the final moves of Twist of Fate, Oak Creek Canyon. <br /> <br />photo: Blake McCord

IMHO, size/range overlap is more critical in the smaller sizes to get the strongest cam placement, especially in softer sandstone. For example, tipped out bigger cams like a #1 C4 are more forgiving than a tipped out #0.3. Besides, a few extra pieces in the small sizes really don't weigh you down.


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By ian watson
From Albuquerque, NM
Nov 30, 2012

Anyone got the cam angle of mastercams vs c4? I heard that the mastercams have more holding power due to there cam angle, that means alot to me in the smaller sizes. Although im sure it levels out due to more surface area on the c4's.


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By sanz
From Raleigh, NC
Nov 30, 2012
One of my first trad leads, on Ooga Chocka at Crowder's Mountain.

I love the combo of:

Yellow MC
Grey C4
Orange MC
Purple C4
Red MC
Green C4

Each one kinda fits in between the others, so you aren't carrying doubles so much as a rack that really covers all sizes. Sure there are plenty of placements that will take more than one option, but often there is one that is just perfect when another is OK.


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By Will S
From Joshua Tree
Nov 30, 2012

ian watson wrote:
Anyone got the cam angle of mastercams vs c4?


13.25 vs 15.

"Holding power" is mostly a marketing term. Aliens used/use about a 16. In reality, there are very, very, very few cases where this would make any difference at all. The tradeoff is, the smaller the cam angle the smaller the range. I'll take more range. YMMV.

There are probably as many cases where the extra "holding power" would be detrimental as helpful. Think of a placement where the integrity of the rock is questionable...that smaller cam angle is more likely to blow the placement apart than a larger cam angle (though again, in reality this will almost never matter)


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By Gunkiemike
Nov 30, 2012

Mugsy, that's a great size comparison list.


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By Jake Jones
From The Eastern Flatlands
Nov 30, 2012
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after a day of cragging.

Also, especially in the smaller sizes, it's worth considering that mastercams will more readily take to shallower placements than C4s. I think C3s still hold the prize for narrowest head if I'm not mistaken. Like someone mentioned earlier, not one of them does everything, but most do their specialty quite well. Pick the right one for the job.


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By ian watson
From Albuquerque, NM
Nov 30, 2012

Will S wrote:
13.25 vs 15. "Holding power" is mostly a marketing term. Aliens used/use about a 16. In reality, there are very, very, very few cases where this would make any difference at all. The tradeoff is, the smaller the cam angle the smaller the range. I'll take more range. YMMV. There are probably as many cases where the extra "holding power" would be detrimental as helpful. Think of a placement where the integrity of the rock is questionable...that smaller cam angle is more likely to blow the placement apart than a larger cam angle (though again, in reality this will almost never matter)



Thanks I kinda always figured it all leveled out in the end.I like them both but prefer c4's 1 and above and mastercams 5 and below although I do have a 6 mastercam that I like better then the 1 c4 for aid.


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By Superclimber
Nov 30, 2012

sanz wrote:
I love the combo of: Yellow MC Grey C4 Orange MC Purple C4 Red MC Green C4 Each one kinda fits in between the others, so you aren't carrying doubles so much as a rack that really covers all sizes. Sure there are plenty of placements that will take more than one option, but often there is one that is just perfect when another is OK.

This is very true. On paper they look almost the same, but in real life they frequently don't fit the same places.


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By Superclimber
Nov 30, 2012

ian watson wrote:
I like them both but prefer c4's 1 and above and mastercams 5 and below although I do have a 6 mastercam that I like better then the 1 c4 for aid.

Agreed. The 6mc is also nice when you carry a double rack cause it kinda fits between the 1 and 2 c4.


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By patto
Nov 30, 2012

Jake Jones wrote:
Also, especially in the smaller sizes, it's worth considering that mastercams will more readily take to shallower placements than C4s. I think C3s still hold the prize for narrowest head if I'm not mistaken. Like someone mentioned earlier, not one of them does everything, but most do their specialty quite well. Pick the right one for the job.


C3s just edge out master cams on head width but master cams come close. The smallest Totem cam has a comparable head width to the largest C3, they also beat MS by a fair margin.

Personally my favourite cams are Totems and then Master Cams.


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