Login with Facebook
 ADVANCED
Osteoarthritis
View Latest Posts in This Forum or All Forums
   Page 2 of 3.  <<First   <Prev   1  2  3   Next>   Last>>
Follow replies to this topic? Notify me at the top of web site.
1

Email me.
 
 
By Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Jun 16, 2014
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after a day of cragging.
Right on Tom. That's awesome man. If mine ever gets unmanageable, that sounds like a decent product. Thanks for the feedback.

FLAG
By Floridaputz
From Oakland Park, Florida
Jun 16, 2014
Regular Route Fairview Dome
Jake,

Lot's of good advice. I'm about to have my second hip replacement at 55 as the result of OA. It runs in my family. After recovering from my first hip replacement, I was able to get back in pretty good climbing shape and feel I can do it again. I beat the crap out of my body by Long distance backbacking, 25 years playing rugby and 40 years of rock climbing. The good news is rock climbing seems to be the one thing I can still do. (maybe not at your level)

What I learned, I had to stop doing compulsive cardio training. I've taking up power walking for cardio. Exersizing is key to stay healthy, but overtraining will wear you out quicker. Resting properly is important.

Don't be the mule anymore. I use to carry big loads, always being the one to take the heavy stuff. Now I try to go light, light, light. I actually ask others to help me with this. IP is good to take, the inflamation is what causes the damage to the joints.

Comming off a mountain with ropes and all the stuff from a big climb is very damaging. Watch that.

Good luck

FLAG
By Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Jun 16, 2014
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after a day of cragging.
Floridaputz wrote:
(maybe not at your level)


Haha, my level isn't really something to bat an eye at.

I hear you Florida. My partners/friends are good dudes and they usually offer to take the bulk of the rack. I've also stopped climbing, at least temporarily at some of my favorite places that have long uphill approaches. You're absolutely right. It's the downhill at the end of the day saddles with a decent load that does all the real damage- for me at least. I had knee surgery late last year so I have to be careful regardless.

I go single pitch cragging way more than multi, so that helps as well. We can distribute a sizeable rack and a few ropes among a few people so the load is pretty light.

Thanks for the words of wisdom man, and good luck to you as well. Good to know you can do it for forty years and then some.

FLAG
By FrankPS
From Atascadero, CA
Jun 16, 2014
Jake Jones wrote:
Haha, my level isn't really something to bat an eye at. I hear you Florida. My partners/friends are good dudes and they usually offer to take the bulk of the rack. I've also stopped climbing, at least temporarily at some of my favorite places that have long uphill approaches. You're absolutely right. It's the downhill at the end of the day saddles with a decent load that does all the real damage- for me at least. I had knee surgery late last year so I have to be careful regardless. I go single pitch cragging way more than multi, so that helps as well. We can distribute a sizeable rack and a few ropes among a few people so the load is pretty light. Thanks for the words of wisdom man, and good luck to you as well. Good to know you can do it for forty years and then some.


Jake, I hope you use trekking poles?

FLAG
By Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Jun 16, 2014
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after a day of cragging.
I do indeed sir.

FLAG
By rjacobs
Jun 17, 2014
Um, me.
Cool, nice to see there are still people following along with this and that no one seems to be dropping out because of this pesky OA stuff. Jake, Mark, Tom and Florida it's good to hear you have found ways to deal with things and a strike a personal balance (along with some peculiar, and exotic, topical products).

As for me, I've developed Heberden's nodes on both ring fingers (x-rays reveal osteophytes, and I've got permanent swelling visible on the outside). Furthermore, I now appear to be developing the same problem on both little fingers. My other joints don't have such overt problems, but they too seem to exhibit abnormal discomfort after climbing. Since a doctor linked all this to OA I've just been trying to experiment with different options and see what I can learn from others.

One thing I'm curious about is if anyone has had much success tweaking their actual climbing technique, not just in terms of frequency as rest, but in regard to actual grip usage. One thing that seems pretty apparent is that hyper-extension (during crimping) must place a huge abnormal compression load on DIP joints, which is where this problem seems to readily appear. People with very healthy cartilage can probably recover from this in just a day or so, while it may take us weeks to rebound from the same thing. I dunno, it's just a theory, as I've not had enough time to see if this is a key factor or not...

Recently I've just been trying to avoid hyper-extension under load. That means absolutely no full-crimp grips and minimal half-crimp grips (which is hard, as half-crimps are such a natural grip). In other words, I'm just trying to open-hand more stuff when possible. This is a bit awkward but I've noticed that it does force me to think a bit harder about my footwork. After all, grabbing a half-pad hold with a open hand leads to a new kind of pump, and thus demands a touch better stability down below. So far I've noticed that doing this seems to reduce recovery time, though it also seems to mean more sensitivity while climbing. Conversely, if I climb "normally" (no holds barred - ha), I almost never have any pain during climbing. That seems ironic to me. Maybe my ligaments just need to adapt to different usage patterns.

Has anyone had any experience mixing things up like this technique-wise, or am I just over thinking things? If you have changed your technique in a similar way, I wonder if that could actually be related to the new problems described (extensor pain, etc.)?

FLAG
By Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Jun 17, 2014
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after a day of cragging.
rjacobs wrote:
One thing I'm curious about is if anyone has had much success tweaking their actual climbing technique, not just in terms of frequency as rest, but in regard to actual grip usage. One thing that seems pretty apparent is that hyper-extension (during crimping) must place a huge abnormal compression load on DIP joints, which is where this problem seems to readily appear. People with very healthy cartilage can probably recover from this in just a day or so, while it may take us weeks to rebound from the same thing. I dunno, it's just a theory, as I've not had enough time to see if this is a key factor or not... Recently I've just been trying to avoid hyper-extension under load. That means absolutely no full-crimp grips and minimal half-crimp grips (which is hard, as half-crimps are such a natural grip). In other words, I'm just trying to open-hand more stuff when possible. This is a bit awkward but I've noticed that it does force me to think a bit harder about my footwork. After all, grabbing a half-pad hold with a open hand leads to a new kind of pump, and thus demands a touch better stability down below. So far I've noticed that doing this seems to reduce recovery time, though it also seems to mean more sensitivity while climbing. Conversely, if I climb "normally" (no holds barred - ha), I almost never have any pain during climbing. That seems ironic to me.


For me, I have noticed no difference. Like you, I started thinking that full crimps were probably the culprit until I started paying closer attention to the technique I was actually employing. When I paid close attention, I found that I rarely used a full crimp, and that I almost always held small holds with open hand orientation. I have no idea why.

Anyway, since starting an actual training regimen, and being forced to use a hangboard to try to stay in shape during knee surgery recovery, I have developed full crimp strength and I definitely use it more now in my climbing. I really don't know how I never did before.

I haven't noticed a difference in pain, stiffness, or recovery time as a result (in my fingers and regarding osteoarthritis- elbows are a different story), but I only use it when I really need to crank on something small to stay on.

Perhaps very strong, superhuman people can open-hand everything at any grade, but I just don't have it in me. So, for me, if I want to progress, closed crimping is a necessity, and I'll do it as long as there are no debilitating results from doing so.

rjacobs wrote:
Has anyone had any experience mixing things up like this technique-wise, or am I just over thinking things? If you have changed your technique in a similar way, I wonder if that could actually be related to the new problems described (extensor pain, etc.)?


Yeah I definitely think that a conscious effort to move upward in grade, combined with increased volume of climbing every week (added training days) is a contributor. Now I have to experiment with what exactly the threshold is by subtracting a little volume and intensity incrementally. But first I'll take a week off and see what that does.

Thanks for your response man.

FLAG
By rjacobs
Jun 17, 2014
Um, me.
Hummm, so in a weird and indirect way it sounds like the OA (and just being more aware of what's going on in your hands) has actually lead to more crimping for you. I assume that's probably not representative, but its sort of interesting. My experience is similar but the result is just the opposite. As I analyzed by grip technique I noticed that I probably used a full crimp way more than I should (which I think is common). For me, OA or not, I think less hyper-extending is a good thing all-around, but yeah, I have no idea whether-or-not it could impact my current symptoms.

Someone (maybe you Jake) mentioned something a while back about starting to use glucosamine? Any correlation between that and pain improvements? I've started taking some though I know there's no point in assessing it's affect until after a month or so. I know some people that swear by the stuff, but they use it for issues with large joints (knee, shoulders), and I've not heard anyone say anything about it's potential effect on hands. Seems pretty hit and miss either way.

Sorry to hear you are having knee problems as well. That's a pretty unfortunate combo.

FLAG
By Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Jun 17, 2014
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after a day of cragging.
rjacobs wrote:
Hummm, so in a weird and indirect way it sounds like the OA (and just being more aware of what's going on in your hands) has actually lead to more crimping for you. I assume that's probably not representative, but its sort of interesting. My experience is similar but the result is just the opposite. As I analyzed by grip technique I noticed that I probably used a full crimp way more than I should (which I think is common). For me, OA or not, I think less hyper-extending is a good thing all-around, but yeah, I have no idea whether-or-not it could impact my current symptoms. Someone (maybe you Jake) mentioned something a while back about starting to use glucosamine? Any correlation between that and pain improvements? I've started taking some though I know there's no point in assessing it's affect until after a month or so. I know some people that swear by the stuff, but they use it for issues with large joints (knee, shoulders), and I've not heard anyone say anything about it's potential effect on hands. Seems pretty hit and miss either way. Sorry to hear you are having knee problems as well. That's a pretty unfortunate combo.


I used it but noticed no difference in my joints. I think the pain improvements are partially getting used to it, and focusing on extra stretching/flexing/extending so that none of my range becomes stagnant. I have joint problems overall- all my joints are pretty much FUBAR, but there are different symptoms. I have resigned myself to a long uphill battle but to me it's worth it. I figure I have at least a few years left of progression before my osteochondritis, arthritis and whatever else takes hold in a way that prohibits any more.

FLAG
By Syd
Jul 1, 2014
The Stoned Master wrote:
Glucosamine is a "life saver" for me. Give it time to kick in (2 weeks) and you'll (hopefully) notice your aches and pains gone or mitigated at least.


It seems to have zero effect for me. What brand do you use and how much do you take?

FLAG
By rjacobs
Jul 2, 2014
Um, me.
I can't speak for Stoned Master, but it seems like Glucosamine is one of those things that everyone has very different experiences with. Some people totally swear by it, while it has no effect on others. There are lots of various derivatives of the stuff (with different "carriers" - Hydrocholoride, Sulfate, etc.) so my personal plan has been to just get the most common one, the Glucosamine Hydrocholoride, and try it for 4-6 weeks (2000mg/day). If there are no signs of improvement I'll switch to Glucosamine Sulfate. I guess at some point I'll either know that it helps or I'll just be disappointed and out $40.

I figure I should just be systematic about it. Either way it's hard to be truly objective about the process.

FLAG
By Tom Nyce
From Flagstaff, AZ
Jul 2, 2014
Down low, before the Y and the Railroad couloirs separate.
I'm 54 years old. I was diagnosed with spinal arthritis when I was just 25. At that time, I already had bony changes visible on x-rays.
For me, fish oil is a big help fighting inflammation.
I took NSAIDS for years, but got GERD along with damage to my esophagus. Watch out for that specifically. It is common with people who take a lot of Ibuprofen, or other NSAIDS. Fish oil works just as well as NSAIDS, without the side effects.
I had AC joint impingement at the top of my shoulder, and couldn't lift my arm up for several years. Often, people in that situation get that operated on, and the joint is "scraped out" to make room. In my case, self designed, range of motion, exercises (over a period of a year) fixed that problem 95%, and I can do pullups again. Those ROM exercises were quite painful, BTW.
The trick with many of these chronic problems is figuring out what you body needs to heal itself. Some of those things can be strength in the surrounding muscles to support the joint, or bringing better circulation to the area, or better nutrients in your diet.
I recently have acquired stiff finger joints, even though I'm only climbing once a week. This is a new problem for me. Hopefully, with experimentation, I can figure out a remedy for that as well.

FLAG
By rjacobs
Jul 2, 2014
Um, me.
Hi Tom... you seem to be in good company here with the stiff finger joints. Regarding your shoulder it's great to hear that you have been able to avoid surgery like that.

You mentioned the fish oil, but what other kinds of nutrition changes have you been making? Like everything else I suppose that needs to be different for everyone, but it's interesting to see what common things may work for others.

FLAG
By Elliott Crooks
Jul 3, 2014
Glocosamine has worked for maintenance-OA in knees, basal thumb joints. Great improvement in the first few weeks, then even-nothing worse. Downhill kills-trekking poles have let me keep climbing-down the approach is the worst. Vitamin I (ibuprofen) works, as long as it doesn't upset your innards. Technique adjustments work:having totally blown my left peroneal brevis tendon coming off Long's Peak, I do a LOT more edging on the outside (lateral) side of my left foot: mostly works. 60 yr old now-growing old sucks, but beats the alternative. My theory is differential ageing; my knees are 20 years older than the rest of me. Good luck.

FLAG
By Tom Nyce
From Flagstaff, AZ
Jul 3, 2014
Down low, before the Y and the Railroad couloirs separate.
I've taken glucosamine/chondroitin for years, but can't say that I notice a difference. My general practitioner told me that the science/research was weak, but that a bunch of his patients swore it helped. I figure that it might help the cartilage over a long period. Also, I've had two different cats that got arthritis and/or joint injuries and the glucosamine made a noticeable difference within a few days. You can't say that was due to the "placebo" effect, since the cat doesn't even know what you are feeding it, lol.

I take turmeric, because I've read great things about it. Again, I don't feel a noticeable difference like I do with the fish oil.

For regular foods, I've noticed a few things that make a difference. For me, dairy has a bad effect on joints. I believe that many processed foods (i.e. "empty calories") aggravate joint problems. That is possibly a secondary effect of blood sugar swings, or insulin spikes, but it might be due to some food colorings, or preservatives. Wheat is a definite culprit for me and many others, and I don't have celiac disease. Of course eating fish is as good, but you have to do your homework about the mercury issue. If you Google "anti-inflammatory foods," you'll get a ton of ideas to consider.

FLAG
By rjacobs
Jul 5, 2014
Um, me.
It's so interesting to hear the way everyone works through the variables for their unique cases... some "best practice" stuff mixed in with tricks here and there which are 100% personalized.

And yeah, it's probably safe to say the the placebo effect is not an issue for cats. I've also got one that's starting to get Arthritis, and she's hopefully going to score from some of this knowledge as well.

I'm thinking about having a go with the fish oil, as that's one idea that keeps coming up with good regard. Maybe less cheese/dairy too. I'm also going in to re-visit a hand specialist for a checkup soon, so I'll have to see if anything new comes out of that.

Cheers!

FLAG
By Dana Bartlett
From CT
Jul 6, 2014
And yeah, it's probably safe to say the the placebo effect is not an issue for cats

Not true.

FLAG
By Syd
Jul 11, 2014
Anyone tried stem cells?

Regeneus does an osteoarthritis stem cell treatment for $9000. They are sending me trials results. Here's a link on stem cells from fat:

adistem.com/technology/adipose...

regeneus.com.au/

FLAG
By rjacobs
Jul 14, 2014
Um, me.
Is that for real? I'm of course referring to both idea of a cat placebo effect and the idea of stem cell treatment for joint pain. I have to admit that I'm a bit skeptical of both.

That said, if there is a real treatment available someday, it's certainly something to keep an eye on.

--Edit--

Oddly enough, a Dr. friend of mine recently mentioned the idea of stem cell treatment... not as a practical thing that's available now, but something that might be in the distant future. Crazy. Ironically enough, it's available for cats already (no joke).

Syd, what do you mean by "trial results"? Like you are in a trial? Or someone is trying to market a $9000 treatment to you?

FLAG
By Edubs
From Brooklyn, NY
Jul 25, 2014
I can't wait until they have some better treatments for OA. Hopefully the baby boomers will push for more research in this area.

I have it in my big toes, am set up for it in my ankle, and have lately notices painful joints in my fingers on anything remotely crimpy. And I'm 33!

I'm currently investigating the utility of getting leaner to reduce the load on my toes (I could probably drop 20lbs without getting too thin), cleaning up my diet, and deciding which supplements I want to try next. Last one was reindeer antler velvet--it didn't help.

But anyway, I stumbled on this vid from our favorite gimp, Joe Simpson:


TBH, this vid is a little depressing, but I might get Cherry Active for my mom and see if she feels better on it. If so, maybe I'll try it too.

FLAG
By Mike Watson
Jul 25, 2014
I broke my ankle (talus) 4 years ago and developed OA in the ankle and sub-talar joints. I've lived with it but it has sucked and pretty much limited me to one day of climbing followed by a rest day and long approaches/descents are pretty much out unless I commit to suffering.

Two Ortho surgeons here in LA said I could live with it until I couldn't and then get it fused. The idea of not hurting was appealing but I still had some ankle mobility left and didn't want to give it up.

After a bunch of searching online I found a Doc in NY who does "Ankle distraction arthoplasty" Basically, they put an external fixator (cage) around your ankle, pull the joint open with pins put through the foot and shin. They remove cells from the hip, spin it down and inject them into the ankle to help heal the OA.

Two weeks down, 81 days to go!

FLAG
By Edubs
From Brooklyn, NY
Jul 25, 2014
Mike Watson wrote:
I broke my ankle (talus) 4 years ago and developed OA in the ankle and sub-talar joints. I've lived with it but it has sucked and pretty much limited me to one day of climbing followed by a rest day and long approaches/descents are pretty much out unless I commit to suffering. Two Ortho surgeons here in LA said I could live with it until I couldn't and then get it fused. The idea of not hurting was appealing but I still had some ankle mobility left and didn't want to give it up. After a bunch of searching online I found a Doc in NY who does "Ankle distraction arthoplasty" Basically, they put an external fixator (cage) around your ankle, pull the joint open with pins put through the foot and shin. They remove cells from the hip, spin it down and inject them into the ankle to help heal the OA. Two weeks down, 81 days to go!


Holy crap Mike! Let us know how it goes! I have an OCD injury to my talus, and am missing some cartilage there, so I've read about some of these procedures. They're pretty experimental, no? Anyway I hope it goes well! Best of luck to you!

FLAG
By Mike Watson
Jul 25, 2014
Doc said he has performed appx. 300 of these and he has a 90% success rate. They say that after the contraption comes off it will feel worse than before but after the PT and about a year things should look better. Certainly a big time and pain commitment. I'll keep you posted!

FLAG
By john strand
From southern colo
Jul 26, 2014
Interesting...my left ankle is no good and I was "strongly " advised to get a fusion...i'm more than hesistant and have seen a Doc in Gollde, Co about the In Bone replacement system,,it uses a stem like hips.

Cardio finally gave the OK for left knee first though...the suck part is no Nsaids or good pain killers because of the heart. I'm hittin' the quads pretty hard right now though

FLAG
By shotwell
Jul 26, 2014
rjacobs wrote:
One thing I'm curious about is if anyone has had much success tweaking their actual climbing technique


rjacobs, I did make major changes to my climbing technique to deal with the pain caused by a Heberden's node in my middle finger. I gave up climbing finger cracks and limit my exposure to very hard slight gastons. I make sure to stay in balance if climbing gastons and try to manage the rest of my body to reduce load on my left hand. I also specifically assess whether a hold is more comfortable for my finger as an open, half, or full crimp. Interestingly, I use the half or open grip almost exclusively with my healthy hand and rarely use anything but the full or half crimp with my injured hand. I'm climbing better than ever, am virtually pain free, and have nothing but a very minor limitation in what I will try.

FLAG


Follow replies to this topic? Notify me at the top of web site.
1

Email me.
Page 2 of 3.  <<First   <Prev   1  2  3   Next>   Last>>