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By Ray Pinpillage
From West Egg
Apr 29, 2012
Middle
Dow's climbing speaks for itself, regardless of what anyone thinks about this thread. besides, this thread doesn't exist in a vacuum, historically there has been a lot of problems with link cams.

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By Austin Baird
From SLC, Utah
Apr 29, 2012
Me scaring years off my mom's life
Ray Pinpillage wrote:
Dow's climbing speaks for itself



That may be the case; but it only speaks for itself when the issue being discussed is climbing ability and\or experience. When the issue being discussed is the ability to cogently and intelligently provide information or make an argument, climbing ability doesn't matter. When the issue being discussed is

mattm wrote:
Mistaking where one currently lives as an indicator of ones intellectual or climbing ability is your folly, not mine. Mistaking intellectual criticism and debate online as some "physical challenge" or "masculine bravado" is, again, your mistake, not mine.


then once again, climbing ability doesn't matter. I respect people for their climbing ability and experience, but that excuses neither the vague, ambiguous posts Dow was making nor his risible attempt at geographic denigration. If someone is a dick (remember - Dow told me I have no business being on this thread because I have several 5.6s on my tick list) then I'll return the favor. I don't give a rat's ass what sort of FAs he has after his name or how many 13s he's climbed - none of that gives him the right to be an asshole.

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By Michael Ybarra
From on the road
Apr 29, 2012
 Trad gumby tries to go sport on the Lion King, January, 2007
You guys should show a little more respect for Mr. Williams. After all, he's a full-time climber, as he points out every second or third sentence. And we all know how rare that is in this sport.

Also, he makes big contributions to climbing. Mostly by going through guidebooks and climbing trade routes and spraying about them on Summit Post, while at the same time complaining constantly that there aren't any real climbers on that site (which I've heard he actually bought)--but never posting route beta on MP because, well, I guess a bunch of real climbers have beat him to it.

And he's also been in the climbing mags. For falling something like 200 feet on a 5.8 when he was off-route and run-out.

Not to mention the fact that he climbs in Utah AND Canada! Who among us can say the same?

So, let's show him the respect he deserves.

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By MJMobes
From The land of steady habits
Apr 29, 2012
modern man
I have to side with Austin here for the first time ever, that was a total dickhead comment about the 5.6 tic list, especially since I still have about 100 more classic 5.6s I want to do on top of the 100 I have ticked at the Gunks. The original post didnt make a ton of sense either, especially with no pics.

The funny thing here is a large percentage of Gunks n00bs carry these link cams and love to spray about how great they are all day at the crag. I'd rather whip on some old Smiley cams I bought from China 17 years ago.

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By Leeroy
Apr 29, 2012
Nice thread Dow!

I guess the happy, feely, "let's all stand around in a circle and tell each other just how awesome we are" folks at SP that swallow your bullshit on a daily basis don't post much on MP.

I completely agree that Dow's "contributions" on that other site are a bunch of crap and this thread is just more mellow dramatic whining from the queen of the piss and moan crowd over at SP. I realize you've built yourself a hardman, know it all persona over there but you've failed to understand that no one else gives a rat's scrawny ass how big of a bad ass you've convinced yourself you are.

You're screaming that the sky is falling and it turns out you broke a trigger wire and OP fixed it for free. To say thank you, you've decided to pretend like they failed to follow up with you and went ahead and got a 3 page thread of drama going by with holding the information that the only thing that broke on your cam was a TRIGGER WIRE!

Not a fan of Link Cams or REI but I think the response you got from both was perfectly reasonable. Instead of trying to trash a companies name because your feelings got hurt, how's about you just check your damn voice mail?

At this point I'd think a man of your stature and importance in the climbing world should realize that it's time to publicly apologize to both OP and REI for acting like an 8 year old hysterical school girl.

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By Cultivating Mass
May 13, 2012
Leading on the only "fair means" rack.
HOOOOOOOO
LEEEEEEEE
SHEEEEEIT.

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By Cultivating Mass
May 13, 2012
Leading on the only "fair means" rack.
IMA

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By Cultivating Mass
May 13, 2012
Leading on the only "fair means" rack.
SOFA KING

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By Cultivating Mass
May 13, 2012
Leading on the only "fair means" rack.
CONFUSED NOW.

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By Cultivating Mass
May 13, 2012
Leading on the only "fair means" rack.
That was a celebratory nod to Ellenor returning, btw. Can't believe how long it took for us to notice the sequential posts and lack of coherence.

Dow, I'm honestly totally lost. It IS funny that all this is over a trigger wire, and the over-the-top multiple site postings indicate that you need to invest in a bottle of wine and some Sisqo CDs so you can get laid and relax a bit. I have met Austin, and he seemed like a nice kid, though I *DID* meet that dirty little POS underneath a 5.6...which is a good route worth doing. You've aroused the inner gangster in that Utah white boy, hopefully everyone can put away the Mountain Meadows Mentality and not start picking parking lots to meet in.

Where I got involved in all this I'm still kinda lost-were you saying that Rob+I should introduce you to some "real MP thuggs" sometime, or indicating that we were part of the fakery? You+I only met once, I'd say I was true to form: made your partner laugh satirizing the Vegas smarm committee and replaced some bolts. If I need to do some flexing and ranting or something, I guess I can make the commute, but ya gotta promise not to get aroused or anything creepy.

Wait, where am I? What am I talking about?

Yep, all this shit is way, WAY confusing. And for the record OP makes good gear even if the Links are pretty weird, REI is pretty great as far as evil corporations go, and I replace 10-12 BD trigger wires a year on average. That's what happens when you're a daily climber without a website.

Finally, if I wasn't clear enough before, I got love for ya, Dow-this whole thread is really, really bizarre though.

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By mortly
Jan 9, 2013
I can't believe I wasted my time reading this thread. It should be removed on account of the fact that it falsely hints towards gross negligence on the part of Omega Pacific, and you need to read a page and a half of posts to discover this real truth. Most people probably aren't going to stick around long enough to learn that this was all about a trigger wire.

Also, Dow, why do you feel it was necessary to say, "I am not Mormon, nor Canadian"? Would being either of those diminish the validity of your argument?

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By erik kapec
From prescott, az
Jan 9, 2013
enjoying the static, grappel and a smoke on Dana...
Really?!!! All this for broken trigger wires????? Iv been on routes where BD wires break and never got butt hurt about it.....also a little rediculous that omega was the one that explained what happened, and the OP was somehow ignorant to the people wanting clarification on what happened.
I was hoping for some crazy story about the cam failing.....Bummer.

Anywho, Link cams suck(IMO) Iv seen more "exploded" cams stuck than any other brand. But still if your going to bother posting about things, you might as well say what happened. Silly internet people.

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By michaeltarne
Jan 9, 2013
I was going to say something, but then I realized I live in Arkansas for most of the year and Kansas for the rest so I don't know anything.

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By Brian Hudson
From Lenoir, NC
Jan 10, 2013
Valor Over Discretion (5.8), RRG
I better beef up on my whining if I ever want to be as badass as Dow...pro tip #1: not talking about a minor thing like a broken trigger wire during a vague rant about gear failure helps get more attention. beware though, if the entity you're criticizing gets a chance to oust you in public, you get laughed at by southern hick 5.6'ers like me. and everyone else.

I feel like this thread was a good use of the last 10 minutes of my life, though. Good to know OP has good customer service :)

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By Superclimber
Jan 14, 2013
Geez loueez papa'cheeze! That was waaay entertaining.

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By Healyje
Jan 14, 2013
girl40
erik kapec wrote:
Anywho, Link cams suck(IMO) Iv seen more "exploded" cams stuck than any other brand.


That's because they're nothing like any other brand of cam and what's unique about them brings a whole different set of advantages and disadvantages that's on you to be cognizant of if you choose to leave the ground with them.

But otherwise you're right, a dramafest of epic insignificance.

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By MJMobes
From The land of steady habits
Jan 14, 2013
modern man
junk, pure junk

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By John Ryan
From Poncha Springs, CO
Jan 14, 2013
No Name Crack, 5.10, Supercrack Buttress, Indian Creek, Utah
I wanted to share my story of Link Cam failure. I was belaying my partner at the start of a sport route which began on a ledge up 25-30 feet. Due to the dangerous position and the height of the first bolt, my partner placed one of the larger link cams in a crack with questionable rock. He climbed a move or two, then a hand or foot hold broke, causing him to fall. The Link Cam failed to arrest his fall, and he ended up falling past the ledge I was belaying from. Upon inspection of the cam, the lobes had become inverted. The rock blew out where it had been placed. I'm assuming the cam failure was due to dynamic forces generated by the failure of the rock, and that if the rock had not failed the cams would not have inverted. Even so, I feel that the cam lobes should not have become inverted and I will never buy a Link Cam, and place partner's LC's with hesitation, if at all!

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By John Wilder
From Las Vegas, NV
Jan 14, 2013
John Ryan wrote:
I wanted to share my story of Link Cam failure. I was belaying my partner at the start of a sport route which began on a ledge up 25-30 feet. Due to the dangerous position and the height of the first bolt, my partner placed one of the larger link cams in a crack with questionable rock. He climbed a move or two, then a hand or foot hold broke, causing him to fall. The Link Cam failed to arrest his fall, and he ended up falling past the ledge I was belaying from. Upon inspection of the cam, the lobes had become inverted. The rock blew out where it had been placed. I'm assuming the cam failure was due to dynamic forces generated by the failure of the rock, and that if the rock had not failed the cams would not have inverted. Even so, I feel that the cam lobes should not have become inverted and I will never buy a Link Cam, and place partner's LC's with hesitation, if at all!


1) Get a stick clip in the future- that high first bolt was probably due to bad rock down low.

2) Its more likely that your friend placed the cam incorrectly. A tipped out link cam is just as likely to umbrella as any other cam. In fact its highly unlikely that the cam lobes inverted from a good placement...

3) Any gear has its limitations- learning to understand those limitations is a key part of the process of using any piece of equipment. Preferably learn the major ones BEFORE you use it- the Link Cam is VERY specialized and NOT for amateur trad climbers.

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By John Ryan
From Poncha Springs, CO
Jan 14, 2013
No Name Crack, 5.10, Supercrack Buttress, Indian Creek, Utah
John Wilder wrote:
1) Get a stick clip in the future- that high first bolt was probably due to bad rock down low. 2) Its more likely that your friend placed the cam incorrectly. A tipped out link cam is just as likely to umbrella as any other cam. In fact its highly unlikely that the cam lobes inverted from a good placement... 3) Any gear has its limitations- learning to understand those limitations is a key part of the process of using any piece of equipment. Preferably learn the major ones BEFORE you use it- the Link Cam is VERY specialized and NOT for amateur trad climbers.

1. Yes, a stick clip would have worked great. It was more because the leader was looking at a 25+' groundfall from the very start than how high the first bolt was from the ledge that he wanted some pro. And the rock was fine on the face next to the crack. This is just an example of the route developer not safely equipping the route - there should have been anchors on the ledge IMO - we set a gear anchor which saved us both when the near FF2 fall occurred.
2. I saw the placement and it was not tipped out. Shit rock yes. Tipped out no. Shit placement yes due to shit rock
3. Amateur trad climbers lol!!

The cams could not have inverted had the rock not blown out. Hate to say it but a Camalot would not have failed in this manner - it wouldn't have prevented the gnarly fall but the lobes would not have inverted.

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By coldatom
From Cambridge, MA
Jan 14, 2013
Jurassic Park
John Wilder wrote:
the Link Cam is VERY specialized and NOT for amateur trad climbers.

I've seen many statements to this effect, but no further details.

Anyone care to elaborate upon how they place/evaluate a Link cam differently than a C4?

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By caughtinside
From Oakland CA
Jan 14, 2013
coldatom wrote:
I've seen many statements to this effect, but no further details. Anyone care to elaborate upon how they place/evaluate a Link cam differently than a C4?


Sure. They can only be placed in perfect placements. Parallel sided cracks with no pebbles or irregularities in them. Any side to side rope pull is unacceptable so you'll need a 4' sling on every placement.

Failure to do any of the above constitutes operator error.

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By J. Thompson
From denver, co
Jan 14, 2013
Trundling a death block. Photo by Dan Gambino.
John Ryan wrote:
Hate to say it but a Camalot would not have failed in this manner - it wouldn't have prevented the gnarly fall but the lobes would not have inverted.


This was a case of operator error. It was a poor placement due to the rock being bad. Any cam would have failed. Any cam that can umbrella likely would have. Camalots CANNOT umbrella. The double axle design doesn't allow it.

josh

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By bearbreeder
Jan 14, 2013
ive fallen on my links multiple times each ...

the only time ive pulled one was after the 5th fall on a row on one ... course i had multiple pieces below as well ;)

they are NOT beginner cams ... place em correctly and extend em

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By Rob Davis
From Brooklyn, NY
Jan 14, 2013
caughtinside wrote:
Sure. They can only be placed in perfect placements. Parallel sided cracks with no pebbles or irregularities in them. Any side to side rope pull is unacceptable so you'll need a 4' sling on every placement. Failure to do any of the above constitutes operator error.


I've read a lot where people say basically this, but I honestly am not sure I completely understand why. I know people that use links as panic pieces, and it seems like using a cam that needs perfect placement as your panic piece is just asking for error.

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