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Apr 29, 2012
 Trad gumby tries to go sport on the Lion King, Ja...
You guys should show a little more respect for Mr. Williams. After all, he's a full-time climber, as he points out every second or third sentence. And we all know how rare that is in this sport.

Also, he makes big contributions to climbing. Mostly by going through guidebooks and climbing trade routes and spraying about them on Summit Post, while at the same time complaining constantly that there aren't any real climbers on that site (which I've heard he actually bought)--but never posting route beta on MP because, well, I guess a bunch of real climbers have beat him to it.

And he's also been in the climbing mags. For falling something like 200 feet on a 5.8 when he was off-route and run-out.

Not to mention the fact that he climbs in Utah AND Canada! Who among us can say the same?

So, let's show him the respect he deserves.
Michael Ybarra
From on the road
Joined Jan 23, 2008
134 points
Apr 29, 2012
the man was smart
I have to side with Austin here for the first time ever, that was a total dickhead comment about the 5.6 tic list, especially since I still have about 100 more classic 5.6s I want to do on top of the 100 I have ticked at the Gunks. The original post didnt make a ton of sense either, especially with no pics.

The funny thing here is a large percentage of Gunks n00bs carry these link cams and love to spray about how great they are all day at the crag. I'd rather whip on some old Smiley cams I bought from China 17 years ago.
T Roper
From VA,NM,UT,CT,MA
Joined Mar 31, 2006
1,054 points
Apr 29, 2012
Nice thread Dow!

I guess the happy, feely, "let's all stand around in a circle and tell each other just how awesome we are" folks at SP that swallow your bullshit on a daily basis don't post much on MP.

I completely agree that Dow's "contributions" on that other site are a bunch of crap and this thread is just more mellow dramatic whining from the queen of the piss and moan crowd over at SP. I realize you've built yourself a hardman, know it all persona over there but you've failed to understand that no one else gives a rat's scrawny ass how big of a bad ass you've convinced yourself you are.

You're screaming that the sky is falling and it turns out you broke a trigger wire and OP fixed it for free. To say thank you, you've decided to pretend like they failed to follow up with you and went ahead and got a 3 page thread of drama going by with holding the information that the only thing that broke on your cam was a TRIGGER WIRE!

Not a fan of Link Cams or REI but I think the response you got from both was perfectly reasonable. Instead of trying to trash a companies name because your feelings got hurt, how's about you just check your damn voice mail?

At this point I'd think a man of your stature and importance in the climbing world should realize that it's time to publicly apologize to both OP and REI for acting like an 8 year old hysterical school girl.
Leeroy
Joined Feb 4, 2012
3 points
Jan 9, 2013
I can't believe I wasted my time reading this thread. It should be removed on account of the fact that it falsely hints towards gross negligence on the part of Omega Pacific, and you need to read a page and a half of posts to discover this real truth. Most people probably aren't going to stick around long enough to learn that this was all about a trigger wire.

Also, Dow, why do you feel it was necessary to say, "I am not Mormon, nor Canadian"? Would being either of those diminish the validity of your argument?
mortly
Joined May 29, 2012
6 points
Jan 9, 2013
enjoying the static, grappel and a smoke on Dana.....
Really?!!! All this for broken trigger wires????? Iv been on routes where BD wires break and never got butt hurt about it.....also a little rediculous that omega was the one that explained what happened, and the OP was somehow ignorant to the people wanting clarification on what happened.
I was hoping for some crazy story about the cam failing.....Bummer.

Anywho, Link cams suck(IMO) Iv seen more "exploded" cams stuck than any other brand. But still if your going to bother posting about things, you might as well say what happened. Silly internet people.
erik kapec
From prescott, az
Joined Mar 3, 2010
221 points
Jan 9, 2013
I was going to say something, but then I realized I live in Arkansas for most of the year and Kansas for the rest so I don't know anything. michaeltarne
Joined Jan 2, 2011
124 points
Jan 10, 2013
Valor Over Discretion (5.8), RRG
I better beef up on my whining if I ever want to be as badass as Dow...pro tip #1: not talking about a minor thing like a broken trigger wire during a vague rant about gear failure helps get more attention. beware though, if the entity you're criticizing gets a chance to oust you in public, you get laughed at by southern hick 5.6'ers like me. and everyone else.

I feel like this thread was a good use of the last 10 minutes of my life, though. Good to know OP has good customer service :)
Brian Hudson
From Lenoir, NC
Joined Dec 10, 2010
112 points
Jan 14, 2013
Geez loueez papa'cheeze! That was waaay entertaining. Superclimber
Joined Mar 7, 2009
1,481 points
Jan 14, 2013
girl40
erik kapec wrote:
Anywho, Link cams suck(IMO) Iv seen more "exploded" cams stuck than any other brand.


That's because they're nothing like any other brand of cam and what's unique about them brings a whole different set of advantages and disadvantages that's on you to be cognizant of if you choose to leave the ground with them.

But otherwise you're right, a dramafest of epic insignificance.
Healyje
Joined Jan 31, 2006
93 points
Jan 14, 2013
the man was smart
junk, pure junk T Roper
From VA,NM,UT,CT,MA
Joined Mar 31, 2006
1,054 points
Jan 14, 2013
No Name Crack, 5.10, Supercrack Buttress, Indian C...
I wanted to share my story of Link Cam failure. I was belaying my partner at the start of a sport route which began on a ledge up 25-30 feet. Due to the dangerous position and the height of the first bolt, my partner placed one of the larger link cams in a crack with questionable rock. He climbed a move or two, then a hand or foot hold broke, causing him to fall. The Link Cam failed to arrest his fall, and he ended up falling past the ledge I was belaying from. Upon inspection of the cam, the lobes had become inverted. The rock blew out where it had been placed. I'm assuming the cam failure was due to dynamic forces generated by the failure of the rock, and that if the rock had not failed the cams would not have inverted. Even so, I feel that the cam lobes should not have become inverted and I will never buy a Link Cam, and place partner's LC's with hesitation, if at all! John Ryan
From Poncha Springs, CO
Joined Aug 31, 2012
170 points
Jan 14, 2013
John Ryan wrote:
I wanted to share my story of Link Cam failure. I was belaying my partner at the start of a sport route which began on a ledge up 25-30 feet. Due to the dangerous position and the height of the first bolt, my partner placed one of the larger link cams in a crack with questionable rock. He climbed a move or two, then a hand or foot hold broke, causing him to fall. The Link Cam failed to arrest his fall, and he ended up falling past the ledge I was belaying from. Upon inspection of the cam, the lobes had become inverted. The rock blew out where it had been placed. I'm assuming the cam failure was due to dynamic forces generated by the failure of the rock, and that if the rock had not failed the cams would not have inverted. Even so, I feel that the cam lobes should not have become inverted and I will never buy a Link Cam, and place partner's LC's with hesitation, if at all!


1) Get a stick clip in the future- that high first bolt was probably due to bad rock down low.

2) Its more likely that your friend placed the cam incorrectly. A tipped out link cam is just as likely to umbrella as any other cam. In fact its highly unlikely that the cam lobes inverted from a good placement...

3) Any gear has its limitations- learning to understand those limitations is a key part of the process of using any piece of equipment. Preferably learn the major ones BEFORE you use it- the Link Cam is VERY specialized and NOT for amateur trad climbers.
John Wilder
From Las Vegas, NV
Joined Feb 1, 2004
2,394 points
Jan 14, 2013
No Name Crack, 5.10, Supercrack Buttress, Indian C...
John Wilder wrote:
1) Get a stick clip in the future- that high first bolt was probably due to bad rock down low. 2) Its more likely that your friend placed the cam incorrectly. A tipped out link cam is just as likely to umbrella as any other cam. In fact its highly unlikely that the cam lobes inverted from a good placement... 3) Any gear has its limitations- learning to understand those limitations is a key part of the process of using any piece of equipment. Preferably learn the major ones BEFORE you use it- the Link Cam is VERY specialized and NOT for amateur trad climbers.

1. Yes, a stick clip would have worked great. It was more because the leader was looking at a 25+' groundfall from the very start than how high the first bolt was from the ledge that he wanted some pro. And the rock was fine on the face next to the crack. This is just an example of the route developer not safely equipping the route - there should have been anchors on the ledge IMO - we set a gear anchor which saved us both when the near FF2 fall occurred.
2. I saw the placement and it was not tipped out. Shit rock yes. Tipped out no. Shit placement yes due to shit rock
3. Amateur trad climbers lol!!

The cams could not have inverted had the rock not blown out. Hate to say it but a Camalot would not have failed in this manner - it wouldn't have prevented the gnarly fall but the lobes would not have inverted.
John Ryan
From Poncha Springs, CO
Joined Aug 31, 2012
170 points
Jan 14, 2013
Jurassic Park
John Wilder wrote:
the Link Cam is VERY specialized and NOT for amateur trad climbers.

I've seen many statements to this effect, but no further details.

Anyone care to elaborate upon how they place/evaluate a Link cam differently than a C4?
coldatom
From Cambridge, MA
Joined Sep 20, 2011
74 points
Jan 14, 2013
coldatom wrote:
I've seen many statements to this effect, but no further details. Anyone care to elaborate upon how they place/evaluate a Link cam differently than a C4?


Sure. They can only be placed in perfect placements. Parallel sided cracks with no pebbles or irregularities in them. Any side to side rope pull is unacceptable so you'll need a 4' sling on every placement.

Failure to do any of the above constitutes operator error.
caughtinside
From Oakland CA
Joined Nov 21, 2006
1,896 points
Jan 14, 2013
Trundling a death block. Photo by Dan Gambino.
John Ryan wrote:
Hate to say it but a Camalot would not have failed in this manner - it wouldn't have prevented the gnarly fall but the lobes would not have inverted.


This was a case of operator error. It was a poor placement due to the rock being bad. Any cam would have failed. Any cam that can umbrella likely would have. Camalots CANNOT umbrella. The double axle design doesn't allow it.

josh
J. Thompson
From denver, co
Joined Jan 1, 2001
1,739 points
Jan 14, 2013
ive fallen on my links multiple times each ...

the only time ive pulled one was after the 5th fall on a row on one ... course i had multiple pieces below as well ;)

they are NOT beginner cams ... place em correctly and extend em
bearbreeder
Joined Mar 1, 2009
1,941 points
Jan 14, 2013
caughtinside wrote:
Sure. They can only be placed in perfect placements. Parallel sided cracks with no pebbles or irregularities in them. Any side to side rope pull is unacceptable so you'll need a 4' sling on every placement. Failure to do any of the above constitutes operator error.


I've read a lot where people say basically this, but I honestly am not sure I completely understand why. I know people that use links as panic pieces, and it seems like using a cam that needs perfect placement as your panic piece is just asking for error.
Rob D.
From Brooklyn, NY
Joined May 18, 2011
37 points
Jan 14, 2013
Axes glistening in the sun
I've got 1 link cam that I use. I've fallen on it once and didn't have an issue, although it wasn't a hard fall. It was in granite and "perfectly" placed according to their website. I for one like REI, but sometimes their workers need a little more school...Case in point... I had one tell me that I should replace my rack of metolius cams with all link cams because they have a wider range!! WTF? Anyway here is from their website regarding placement.....

Here are a few more pointers:
Assess the overall placement for quality of the rock. Dense, solid stone makes for better placements, generally. Flaky, loose rock or expanding flakes should be avoided, whenever possible.
Attempt to place cams so that there is maximum contact between the lobes and the feature, ensuring that the load is as equally distributed as possible between all four lobesets.
Place cams so that they are neither "tipped out" nor "overcammed" as either instance can make the placement less stable or difficult to remove. As a general rule, deploy Link Cams so they are within 70% of their maximum range and 10% of their minimum, fully-retracted position.
Clip a carabiner and a longer sling to the sewn sling on wandering routes or under roofs to prevent the cams from "walking."
Be sure to anticipate direction of load, should you fall or weight the cam. This is particularly important with Link Cams, due to their unique construction. Since they are built using trisected cam lobes, Link Cams can become damaged%u2014and the placement may fail%u2014if a load is placed that makes the cam "shift" when a climber falls onto it. We are constantly researching ways to improve the strength and durability of Link Cams, but it is critical that Link Cams be placed with direction of load in mind. You should always place any removable protection with this principle in mind, of course, but Link Cams in particular should be placed so that the stem is aimed directly toward the ground and, when loaded, the position of the axle does not rotate during a fall or when bounce-testing. Although Link Cams' flexible stems can help "correct" a less-than-ideal placement, it is still important that the initial placement be made in proper alignment with anticipated load.
Visually inspect every placement before relying on it! This is an excellent discipline regardless of which piece of gear you use, but with Link Cams, proper placement is crucial to maximizing safety and effectiveness. Placing a piece "blind" can often lead to an improperly-placed cam and may not be reliable. If a Link Cam is not able to be placed properly, in direction of anticipated load, select another piece.
CE/UIAA certified and made in the USA
"H"
From Manitou Springs
Joined Feb 13, 2006
59 points
Jan 14, 2013
Rob Davis wrote:
I've read a lot where people say basically this, but I honestly am not sure I completely understand why. I know people that use links as panic pieces, and it seems like using a cam that needs perfect placement as your panic piece is just asking for error.


you take it off your harness and plug it into a solid parallel crack ... there are times when you need to get SOMETHING in ... even just to hang off ... the links are the range of 2-3 camalots, if you used up your last c4 of the proper size 30 feet below, yr screwed otherwise

contrary to popular belief it doesnt need "perfect" placement ...

but it does need to

- be oriented in the direction of the fall ... or in a horizontal ...

- the crack should somewhat even .... it doesnt need to be an absolutely perfect crack

- shouldnt be on in the bottom of a pod

- should be extended with a draw

the are NOT beginner pieces, simply for the reason that beginners should start with cams where they dont develop a "plug and play" attitude ... finding the right size is an absolutely critical skill ... many beginners buy links because they think they can just take any size and plug it in brainlessly

ive fallen on all my links 5+ times each and probably 20-30+ times easily on the purple one
bearbreeder
Joined Mar 1, 2009
1,941 points
Jan 14, 2013
mortly wrote:
I can't believe I wasted my time reading this thread. It should be removed on account of the fact that it falsely hints towards gross negligence on the part of Omega Pacific, and you need to read a page and a half of posts to discover this real truth. Most people probably aren't going to stick around long enough to learn that this was all about a trigger wire.


If you didn't want this thread to continue to exist, why did you respond to it and bump it to the top 8 months after it had already 'died'?

I really wanted to give Dow the benefit of the doubt, and I had no problem with his review being one that criticizes the lack of customer service vs the discussion of the failure itself. But, after reading the response from OP that Dow had his cam fixed up and returned within 8 days, it was apparent that Dow was just horribly impatient. 8 days for a company to receive you cam, fix it, and have it back in your hands ready for use? That sounds like the OPPOSITE of bad customer service to me. Hell, many of my new gear order from online retailers take more than 8 days and all they have to do is take my money, throw shit in a box, and have UPS pick it up for them from their warehouse.

I've never had the desire to own any link cams, and I still don't, but I'd have no problems buying OP gear knowing that they take care of their customers.
Ian Stewart
Joined May 17, 2010
166 points
Jan 14, 2013
Ian Stewart wrote:
If you didn't want this thread to continue to exist, why did you respond to it and bump it to the top 8 months after it had already 'died'?


Because if you search for "Omega Pacific Link Cams" in google, this thread comes up on the first page. Therefore many people will end up on the first page of this thread when looking for information about these cams. In other words, just because the thread is "dead" on MP, doesn't mean it's dead on the internet.

If I were Omega Pacific, I would be very concerned this fact, as the lack of substance behind Dow's initial rant definitely tarnishes their product's reputation.

However I will admit that an important discussion as been had in this thread, as I have learned a lot of valuable information about how to correctly use the link cam.

I think Dow should edit his initial post and fully disclose the nature of his cam's breakage and OP's response. Considering OP's totally excellent response and customer service, I think it owes it to them. It would also be useful if he were to give mention/linkage to OP's special instructions for using the link cams, as other have done much further down in this thread.


mortly
Joined May 29, 2012
6 points
Jan 14, 2013
mortly wrote:
Because if you search for "Omega Pacific Link Cams" in google, this thread comes up on the first page.


Ah, gotcha.

mortly wrote:
I think Dow should edit his initial post and fully disclose the nature of his cam's breakage and OP's response. Considering OP's totally excellent response and customer service, I think it owes it to them. It would also be useful if he were to give mention/linkage to OP's special instructions for using the link cams, as other have done much further down in this thread.


I agree, an edit with the thread resolution (that OP is actually a pretty awesome company) should be added to the first post. A moderator could probably do this, too, if Dow doesn't get around to it.
Ian Stewart
Joined May 17, 2010
166 points
Apr 19, 2013
I really enjoyed this thread showing people on MP have independent, logical thoughts and don't just blindly follow one side, request more information when the detail are shady, and recognize information hiding.

Among other things, this thread shows that: the cams didn't fail in their main purpose, someone commented trigger wires need replacement no matter what company (good for me to know), that the people on MP are able to suss out a situation, and lastly, Omega Pacific's customer service post shows they are a great company.

I used Omega Pacific Link cams for the first time yesterday... pretty cool additional features above regular cams. One of the most inventive features (the others being dual axle cams, 3 lobes) for cams since SLCDs were invented.

I am in awe (yeah i'm dorky) of all these modern inventions for climbing making it safer and allowing higher grades, better practice equipment, keep up the good work.
Ana Tine
Joined Dec 7, 2012
66 points
Apr 21, 2013
Killing In The Name Of wrote:
^^^^Positivity. Must be a troll! :)


Unfortunately caprinae monkey is dead serious... She is from Cincinnati though, maybe that explains it.
EricSchmidt
Joined Feb 3, 2013
5 points


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