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OK so you have just taken a big wipper!
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By Airbiscuit
Mar 31, 2010
Now normally I just clip my ascender to the line right in front of my face, (the one comming from my harness); and with my ascender attached to my daisys, just start jugging up. However, Due to a recent minor misshap (thank god) I am now realizing that if the piece you are jugging on fails, now your ascenders are taking the brunt of the shock load and will hence chop your shit, and send you to your maker.

My question is this, what is the best way to get back to the high point given harder aid when you top piece is suspect?

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By Ian F.
From Phx
Mar 31, 2010
prussiks

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By Mark Hudon
Mar 31, 2010
On the North America Wall in 1977.
I'll bet a hundred bucks, Pass the Pitons Pete would say to use a grigri at your waist, place a jug higher up the rope, clip a biner to it and run the rope from the down side of your grigri up to that biner and then back down to you. You have now created a 2:1 pulley system. You pull down on the rope, the rope slips through the grigri and you go up ( you could put an aider on the jug, just don't clip directly into it) . You push up the jug and repeat. You're never actually on the jug so if a further piece pulls you will fall only onto the grigri.
I don't have my camera handy so I can't take a photo of the set up for you. I'll try to get to that tonight.

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By sunder
From Alsip, Il
Mar 31, 2010
ICE PIT 2011
+1 on the Grigri to biner on prusik for a 2:1.... I have used this for setting routes, never after a big wipper... Also you could talk a 48" sling from the prusik and stand on it as well, and when you stand up you also pull out the slack.

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By Mark Hudon
Mar 31, 2010
On the North America Wall in 1977.
and don't forget that you can easily tie a prussik or kleimheist knot with cord or webbing.

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By Eric D
From Gnarnia
Mar 31, 2010
Born again on the last move of the Red Dihedral, high Sierras.
What am I missing here? Why not just pull down on the rope going from the belayer to the top piece, as you do after a lead fall on sport? Are we talking severe overhangs only?

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By Airbiscuit
Mar 31, 2010
No, I thought of that too, Ascender on that side but not daisied in and just yo yoing your self up. However doesn't the pully action puts added force on the piece holding the fall? And then again if that pulls your hosed because now you don't have your ascenders anymore.

I don't really think prussiks are prectical for anythin but emergency situations. But maybe i am not thinking about it the right way.

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By Chase Roskos
From Boulder, CO
Mar 31, 2010
The Raven - Shelf Road
Airbiscuit wrote:
I don't really think prussiks are prectical for anythin but emergency situations. But maybe i am not thinking about it the right way.

Why aren't they practical? Just curious.

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By Mark Hudon
Mar 31, 2010
On the North America Wall in 1977.
You could "bounce" your way up but if you've just fallen off a difficult aid pitch you would be seriously risking ripping more pieces. Bouncing your way up might be harder with an aid rack on also.

The pulley system I described is never more than an arms length away from you and puts no more force on the top pieces than it is already holding. How can it? If the next top piece failed, you would further but the pulley set up would be unaffected.

The first ascent of the Nose was cleaned on prussiks. If you dropped one of your jugs and didn't have a grigri you could easily use a prussik to clean a pitch. How are they not practical for anything but emergencies?

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By sunder
From Alsip, Il
Mar 31, 2010
ICE PIT 2011
Assuming that the last piece was the only piece to hold the fall.. The force that you will apply to it while jugging is nothing like the force that it held during the fall... So i say jug away... And let the comments fly about this.

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By Mark Hudon
Mar 31, 2010
On the North America Wall in 1977.
Just because it held one fall doesn't guarantee is will continue to hold.

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By J. Thompson
From denver, co
Mar 31, 2010
Trundling a death block. Photo by Dan Gambino.
Mark Hudon wrote:
You're never actually on the jug so if a further piece pulls you will fall only onto the grigri.


Um...really?
Then what are you weighting when you pull yourself and the grigri up?

josh

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By Mark Hudon
Mar 31, 2010
On the North America Wall in 1977.
You have your aiders clipped to the jug but you, yourself are not clipped to it. If the above piece fails you aren't force loading the jug, you'll fall back onto your grigri.

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By J. Thompson
From denver, co
Mar 31, 2010
Trundling a death block. Photo by Dan Gambino.
Mark Hudon wrote:
use a grigri at your waist, place a jug higher up the rope, clip a biner to it and run the rope from the down side of your grigri up to that biner and then back down to you. You have now created a 2:1 pulley system. You pull down on the rope, the rope slips through the grigri and you go up ( you could put an aider on the jug, just don't clip directly into it) .



So in the system you describe here it seems like you pull up on the jug...with the grigri. Thats weighting the rope with the jug.

FYI this is a system Pete and others folks have used for years...generally it's for people who either #1 don't know how to use jugs effectively or #2 aren't strong enough to.


josh

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By Airbiscuit
Apr 1, 2010
Mark, I see what you are talking about and I think that was the answer I was looking for.

As far as the pully action was concerned, i was refering to Eric D. comment.

Now as far as Prussiks are concerned i have had the unfoutunate pleasure of jugging several full rope lengths due to forgotten ascenders. Now, i was using a Kliemhist with a biener and maybe I was using the wrong stye; but having to untighten each knot before I pushed it upwards seemed beyond slow and tiring.

As i write this i can't imagin the early hardman dealing with such inefficencys as they toiled up the Captian in the 50's but once again they were "hardmen" for a reason.

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By Derek W
Apr 1, 2010
First summit of First Flatiron
Airbiscuit wrote:
MNow as far as Prussiks are concerned i have had the unfoutunate pleasure of jugging several full rope lengths due to forgotten ascenders. Now, i was using a Kliemhist with a biener and maybe I was using the wrong stye; but having to untighten each knot before I pushed it upwards seemed beyond slow and tiring.


This doesn't address your original question, but I've ascended multiple ropes (not more than 20 though) with only friction hitches, I've never owed a handled ascender... Anyway, I use bachman's hitches because they are pretty easy to slid up by pushing the biner. You just have to be careful you don't pull down on that same biner before its locked up because it slides right back down. Ascenders make life nice, but they are certainly not needed. At least in my world...

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By "Pass the Pitons" Pete Zabrok
From Oakville, Ontario
Apr 4, 2010
Left to right - me, Sam Adams, Thomas Huber, Alex Huber
A hundred bucks, eh? I'd settle for another pound or two of that New Guinea dark coffee, Mark! That stuff was fabulous!

Josh appears confused. The technique Mark describes isn't for jugging per se, it is a specific application for a specific purpose. [And for the record, I have probably jugged thirty or forty vertical miles in my time.]

If you fell off an aid pitch, most likely it overhangs or traverses so far, you are nowhere near the "other part of the rope" that runs down to your belayer who is holding you, so there is no way you can Batman yourself back up.

You don't want to be attached to the rope with a toothed cam, if the piece that caught you decides to pop out. Just because it held your fall, doesn't mean it can't fail as you're jugging.

So use something other than a toothed cam. I like the Body Hoist system Mark describes using the Grigri in this situation. It's dead easy to use if you were soloing on the Grigri - just pass the free end of the rope through a jug [or better still, a Klemheist] and make yourself a 2:1 Body Hoist. Yes, you are momentarily standing on the jug as you pull yourself up. Should the piece you are Body Hoisting on fail, have the presence of mind to lift your foot, I suppose.

Now if you took a lead fall using an assisted belay [that is, climbing in a team of more than one, so you have a person belaying you] then in all likelihood you are tied into the end of the rope. You will need to gain a bit of height in order to attach your Grigri, and have enough free rope to get the Body Hoist system working. So BE CAREFUL when you do this! This might be a really good time for a couple Klemheists, especially if the piece that caught you isn't the best.

Of course if the piece that stopped you really is bomber, and you are certain of it, nothing wrong with jugging to your high point to try again.

And there is only ONE "S" IN PRUSIK! Sheesh. A prusik is a symmetric knot, and only half the wraps grip the rope. The other half do absolutely nothing. Accordingly, discard it from your repetoire and use the Klemheist instead. Figure out the correct number of wraps to give you the right balance between grip and slidability.

Throw your prusik knot and you figure-8-on-a-bight into your recycle bin, and replace with Klemheist and butterfly respectively.

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By mucci
From sf ca
Apr 5, 2010
It is a mechanical advantage system that many employ when certain situations arise that warrant a method of ascending where standard jumars are not the preferred method.


Great system, a good one to have in the arsenal. Applicable on wall routes and free.

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By Adam Winters
Administrator
From the Shire
Apr 6, 2010
Red-tail Hawk, Buttermilks
settle down ladies - save the energy for something that actually matters

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By "Pass the Pitons" Pete Zabrok
From Oakville, Ontario
Apr 6, 2010
Left to right - me, Sam Adams, Thomas Huber, Alex Huber
All right, enough already. I have deleted every post and comment that has nothing to do with the original question. Perhaps you-all can do the same, eh?

Cheers, and see you on the bridge for beers next month.

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By Mark Hudon
Apr 6, 2010
On the North America Wall in 1977.
Yeah, let's bag the pissing and the STFU. I'm with Pete, delete all your posts that don't relate to the original post. Thanks.

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By J. Thompson
From denver, co
Apr 6, 2010
Trundling a death block. Photo by Dan Gambino.
"Pass the Pitons" Pete Zabrok wrote:
All right, enough already. I have deleted every post and comment that has nothing to do with the original question. Perhaps you-all can do the same, eh? Cheers, and see you on the bridge for beers next month.


Done.

Cheers,

josh

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