I haven't climbed it but I think it should be left the way it is. There are plenty of well protected 5.11's and with the fearsome reputation that the route has developed I would hate for it to be altered to make the route more accessible. Not gonna lie, if someone added more bolts I'd clip them and it would be mentally much easier. The routes got character that should prevail.

To tag along on your real estate analogy. There are historic building all over the country that are prime real estate often times located in expensive parts of cities, surrounded by high rises and modern buildings. It would be a tragedy to lose such places that have a value beyond just the space they occupy. Same for B-Y. It has values to climbing and the community outside of mere difficulty and an occupied space on the rock. I don't even have to climb it to know it. The further we get from the era of climbs put up in a bold and adventurous style, the more important that younger climbers experience that style and that experience. For future climbers to not be able to experience things like that would be a greater loss than any kind of benefit that might be garnered from adding bolts to B-Y or any other bold climb.

I'm curious to know what the rest is. Pick the scab, PICK THE SCAB! Might as well, we're off topic now.

Let me be blunt:

A route put up by a very cool dead guy who enjoyed risk for the sake of risk. That should help spell it out for you. Or maybe not...

Rough-

It is not about just the climbing- it is the adventure. One day you may learn that but somehow with your attitude I doubt it. I challenge you to develop your mind control over the next 12 months.

There are plenty of soloist/hard climbers that are not dead and some who died doing other things, and still some others that died of old age. Very few eat shit soloing.

Rough,

its not about making the route more accessible for everyone, this route was and still remains a standard for tough mental as well as physical climbing, bolts will never be added to this route out if respect for Bachar and for what this route is, even if it was old people or dead people who put up the route lets have some respect for what the route stands for and for the people who put it up. You wouldn't change anything on Action Direct because Wolfgang is dead and because its an "old" route then why would you change this route, it is there for more then just a physical challenge if you are not up to the challenge don't get on it, i know i wont be getting on it anytime soon, i'm scared of it, and that's the point to make the climber have to work both mentally and physically.

Fat Dad said it well...

Rough, I think the scab picking can be much more generalized. Soloists have died in the past and will die in the future. We know it, they know it. It's a risk they (myself occasionally included) are willing to take. The reason people do it is completely personal but I can't tell what behavior you think that others think should be emulated and preserved. There are certain routes that have elements beyond physical capability. They require you dig deep, real deep. In a society where things are continuously softened and sterilized to make life easier I think there is a lot more value in things like mental control, self reliance, and severe commitment than something that is just a work out.

I don't think B-Y is exclusionary. Intent to exclude does not make it so. I could fly out and climb it right now if I wanted. I might fall off and break my legs but the only thing stopping me from getting on it is me. I've jumped on climbs that were way too hard for me and the reason I could do that was because they were accessible due to a bolt never being below my feet. I've also done climbs where the last piece of gear (and the only one) were miles below me, rescue and medical care were miles away, and I'm near my limit. Those climbs were accessible because I had the ability to dig deep and push out anything except what was right in front of me.

There are climbs and places that I can't get to because of both my physical and mental abilities and that's fine. I'd like those places to stay that way so one day when I feel capable I can test myself like nothing else has. Unfortunately, NFS/NPS has conflicting goals to provide access while preserving nature. They, in most cases seem to have chosen to provide access at the cost of preserving nature through road building, bridge building, and all sorts of other construction projects that I disagree with. I personally think it's ok that certain places are difficult to get to, even if it means other people can't get there, even if those other people includes me. I'm not trying to be exclusionary but nature is not a carnival ride where you just jump in there and everything will be ok and I don't think it should be. Unfortunately, I don't think that notion is shared with the vast majority of people who access our public lands.

I'd dig up the text from Bachar on ST where he says that it was the exact intent of the BY (and several other of his TM r/x routes) to "save it" from others developing it in a more reasonable style, but I am too lazy to word search it out.

Don't get me wrong, as I stated above I am all for keeping it around. The mystique of "living through it" has made it a landmark / significant climb and is something that should be saved, as I stated above. It is more of the motives to the how it got there that I am speaking to.

As it is related to the behaviors I am eluding to as being championed: risk for the sake of risk. In the general climbing community, it is often ironically called an ethical issue to bolt less, but that doesn't change the fact that the moment you put in fixed protection you are bring the climb down to your level of comfort. The idea that climbing bolder on routes less then your physical limits and then artificially making them more difficult by placing protection further apart then you would at a climb near your max is something I see as a waste and an exclusionary act of spite to the general climbing populace. I would challenge anyone to say JB didn't often act in spite towards other when he felt they didn't adhere to his ideals. I would call the BY probably his most classic example.

In summary:

- Utmost respect for JBs ability and not meant to slander him in any way.

- The BY should be saved. It should not be retrobolted. Whats done is done.

- Whether for you it is a test piece or for me a good "bad example", to each their own opinion.

- Climbing routes well below your physical ability and then running them out to make a statement is pretty lame. And when I say running them out, I am saying placing fixed protection at arbitrary intervals. Don't play the "He did it on lead and those where the only spots" game. That is completely debunked by the fact that people have fallen in the middle of pitches with slung knobs and they held. Certainly a stance or hook/loop (which is what was used during the group up FA) could have been implemented for fixed protection. JB simply chose to climb past them.

And that's about all I have to say about the BY. I'm heading out climbing right now :)

Rough , Let ME be perfectly blunt- you are a fucking moron. ( my apologies to the site admins.)

So how often does the route get done????????????

what sound does a fluff (or rough, or whatever) make when it craters from a 5 foot V-zero lowball?

DOOSSHHHH!!!!

do the world a favor and head down to walgreens, buy a couple cyanide caplets, and chase them down with a diet coke.

Give me a break, Kevin. Rough makes a fair point and makes it respectfully. He doesn't propose to retrobolt B-Y, but disagrees with the style in which it was established and thoughtfully explains why. Is that allowed or must Bachar's view be venerated? If someone doesn't bow, can you disagree without anger or contempt?

By the way, I'm not sure who or what feels right, and I'm not significant enough for anyone to care. But how about this hypothetical: I'm a 5.10ish climber. If I find a nice line of virgin 5.7 or 8 in a prized climbing area, is it cool and visionary of me to place 2 bolts in 100' and tell all the aspiring 5.8 leaders this route just isn't for them because I didn't want to pull it down to my level (even though that is exactly what I did...my level just happens to be bold at that difficulty?)

EDIT: Shit Slim, kill himself? Even in jest? Get some sense of proportion, people.

Rough, have you attempted the route? Perhaps you'd be surprised.

Shawn- Edit? Don't get it.

I meant that suggesting, even facetiously, that Rough should commit suicide was like pulling a switchblade while playing ping pong.

shawn, are you on crack? i wouldn't say fluff shows bachar much respect. and i don't jest. ever.

Yeah. Y'all need to chill out a bit. Or maybe a lot. Rough is being civil, so even if you disagree vehemently (I do), remember guideline #1.

"was like pulling a switchblade while playing ping pong"

???

Hi Tim,
I assume these queries are sincere. Nevertheless, this will be my last effort to clarify. I meant that telling Rough to swallow cyanide because of his expressed views about Bachar-Yerian and bolting ethics was a disproportionate and unhealthy response.