No falls?

Yawn.

kudos.

I fall, and hate it.

I hear ya' Tom. I don't like falling. I like climbing. And to me, falling is losing the entirety of control that one gains while climbing. The few whippers I have taken, I hated. It's not like I was afraid gear would pop. I knew the gear was solid. But to fall meant that I had done something wrong on the climb as to cause the fall. The fall meant that I screwed up somewhere along the line, either losing control, technique, concentration, or strength.

I do give credit, however, to the climber who will work a line over and over, and whip time and again, simply to gain the strength and skill necessary to get to the top clean. That's impressive to me. Perhaps I'm limiting how far I progress in terms of difficulty, but I'd rather not fall.

I'm not a fan of falling. But, like you said, if you're pushing your limits, falling is part of the picture. I won't lie, I've fallin thousands of times just to nail down THAT one route.

If you are not falling, you are not climbing hard enough.

20 years climbing, no real big falls (once on aid which I don't count) to speak of.
Am I really pushing it enough?
I don't want to fall tomorrow...or the next day either.

Steve

"Yeah yeah, I know others will respond by quoting the gym/sport climbing mentality that falling allows one to push their limits and number grades. Tell me something I don't know.
Are there any others out there who share my view that climbing is about absolute control of mind and body and feel that falling is failure?"

I think this is unfair. I fall. But falling alone isn't what allows me to find my limits. I also don't feed into the grades thing.

I think hanging on gear is just as much of a "failure" situation. You didn't lose control. Big fat deal. you still stopped before "success." Climbing is of course appreciated in all kinds of ways; for me, and regardless of if I fall, when climbing in a way to challenge myself (not always the case, I do climb for the aesthetic, to adventure hundreds of other reasons) I appreciate knowing that even if I come off, I was up there, and I did not limit myself with doubt. Even if I think something is too hard, I TRIED. A no fall record to me, means that you never felt the thrill of actually pushing through something you didn't expect to. I don't think I could have made it past my first year without that kind of unique gratification, much less multiple decades. You mention "Osmond Style" leaps and bungee jumps...there's adrenaline galore, yet a profound lack of something which only comes from succeeding despite risk management and "control."

free-soloing may be the sport for you since it is all no fall anyhow.

Good for you I guess; for having what you dom since you appreciate it. But it is clearly not the same for everyone, and you shouldn't only ask for people who agree and dismiss everyone else as "gym and sport climbers."

C K Mills wrote:I think hanging on gear is just as much of a "failure" situation. You didn't lose control. Big fat deal. you still stopped before "success.

C K Mills has a very good point here. I've never stopped and hang on a piece of gear except once when I was off route and had to rap. That's something I'm quite proud of and a record I hope to maintain. Sure, I've taken a few falls, but I've also come out clean when I was certain I was going to fall. It's a nice feeling when that happens. I think you are robbing yourself from such experiences, but on the other hand you don't seem to want them as control seems to be the most important issue for you.

Personally I'd rather fall trying than giving up.

I enjoy pushing my limits and testing my ability's. I also fall. When I solo it is for the pure joy of the movement, the feel of the rock, and the absolute control I feel. Climbing roped moderates(.7-.10a) I experience the same focus and joy, with the added challenge of being technically safe. Example; Plug-n'-Go, The feeling of moving smoothly across the stone placing gear as needed, not wasting energy, being efficient and letting the route dictate how I climb. Staying well inside my limits. I absolutely love finding a steep challenging 5.12 finger crack that is covered in lichen, untouched, and waiting to be climbed, ground-up. The times I have fallen were on new routes, times I had the strength and ability, to complete the moves, I just needed a go or two to figure them out. I don't mind falling if I feel I am at the edge of my boundary's, and there is something to be gained. I am sure it is a matter of personal preference. I don't ever feel disappointed after getting shut down on a climb, just lower,pull,shake, and try again. I believe it is exactly what you want it to be, success, failure, or just a good time getting your ass kicked. I think if you want to get better you have two choices, 1:Never fall, climb as much within your ability and slowly over time push your grades, a year of 5.7's and an .8- or three tossed in. 2:The same as #1, but climb .7's, .8's, and a few .9's maybe a soft .10. Get in deep enough (safely) to push through, or fall. Lowering and hang doggin' is falling. Whipping 20ft. is falling. It's all in the eye of the beholder. Go climb, have fun. Whatever that means to you. I'm going to pack another one and hope the weather clears faster than predicted. Fall or don't, just do it for you. Peace. J

How can you call falling the antithesis of climbing but be fine with hanging on gear? You might fail, so why try?

Tom,
Just climb "Beta Slave" a bit out of balance at the crux, and you will be on your way down before you know it. That is one kinda nasty swinger thats about 12 feet or so. I have taken a few short falls on sport climbs but never totally unexpected.

I wouldn't know, I fall all the time...

Thomas,

I can verify I never saw you take an out of control lead fall!

Funny, I feel almost the opposite way about it: if I don't take a fall on lead at least once per climbing day I kind of feel like I didn't try very hard that day.

I find that lots of times when I am doubting my ability to do a move or thinking I am about to pitch off, if I just stick with it and try, I will scrape through. For me, these are usually my most memorable sends.

So if I fall it is usually no big deal, but I have lots of rules:
1. sport climbing fall = cool; trad climbing fall = not cool
2. watch out who the belayer is and where they will be standing - don't want to whip the little gal into a boulder or anything.
3. don't fall above ledges or where there is groundfall potential
4. don't fall at bolt 1: lots of force plus potential collision with belayer

Last reasonably big fall was last weekend at Red Rocks - pitched about 15-20 ft while trying to get a draw clipped to a bolt - man was I pumped! No harm done, just air.

Rich

Interesting post, Tom.

To Richard Magill and others who have expressed similar views: Why the rejection of trad falls? Is it at all stylistic or purely a pragmatic safety consideration? There are a lot of bomber placements out there...

To Tom Hanson: I differ with your view that hanging on gear better fits the essence of climbing than does losing your grip. Neither is an ideal or elegant option. But one involves (or can involve) maximal effort to succeed at the ideal, while the other signals preemptive surrender of the ideal. Why is that better? Or to avoid the implication of good and bad, why is that more in the spirit of climbing?

If your answer is that it manifests control rather than loss of control, my answer is that is an artificial control, dependent on mechanical insertions in the rock. By hanging, you still lose control of--or perhaps temporarily withdraw from--your personal dance with the primal element. So what superior experience are you preserving? What are you controlling? The effect of gravity's pull? You could do that with scaffolding.

That last bit sounded snarky, but I'm just trying to play out concretely the implications. I have high respect for you and your contributions to climbing, not to mention your enrichment of Mountain Project.

Shawn

Falling is failure.

Though failure can still be a learning experience & the learning experience might help to make you a better climber.

Otherwise pebble poppers would just jump off of boulders and call it good.

Since I climb sport about 90+ percent of the time, when I am trad climbing I just like to avoid falling, period. There are lots of bomber placements, yes. But I just reserve my real "go-for-it" mentality to sport climbing. Probably an abundance of caution.

I think falling is not failure - quite the opposite. In my head, saying 'take' is closer to failure - but there is no real failure if you are out there having fun and doing your thing. It's all good.

Read Arno Ilgner's "Rock Warrior" book for a better understanding ...

Being an old Traddie', I've managed to avoid falls for much of my climbing life too, mostly due to the belief in 'The leader shall not fall' mantra of old. I know the sporty's will think that's odd, but that's because most of them have never never had to start a climbing life from the rugged start of placing gear and knowing your limits so you don't overextend on that gear. Sure, they push limits as do boulderers, but hey, their routes seem to often end in mid cliff anyway. I do enjoy the summit, the real top-out, more than the numerical ranking I can notch on my logbook.

My thoughts echo those of Paul Carlson, Aaron S, Michael Collins and C K Mills. I've fallen countless times sport climbing, and a handful (5?) times on trad lines. On the other hand, I've never willingly weighted gear (unless backing off a route) on trad, preferring either to downclimb to a stance or just go for the sequence.

The huge whippers you speak of might be a bit imprudent, but it just isn't in my wiring to willingly back off a move and settle for hanging on my gear; I'd rather give what I've got and, if it doesn't work out, go for the ride. I always feel like I'm giving up/failing moreso if I'm yelling "take" than if I'm yelling "FUCK-FALLING!"

Tom Hanson wrote:Yeah yeah, I know others will respond by quoting the gym/sport climbing mentality that falling allows one to push their limits and number grades. Tell me something I don't know.

Too bad you couldn't have left out that part in your original post. No need to insult those of us who don't agree with your philosophy.

I'm definitely with those who consider hanging on gear a greater failure than falling. Everybody has their own boundaries of comfort that they won't exceed, and there's nothing wrong with that; but just because you choose to climb conservatively enough that you never fall doesn't make that style superior. Like Buff said, falling is ideally a learning experience, and probably a better learning experience than hangdogging.

Tom Hanson wrote:Are there any others out there who share my view that climbing is about absolute control of mind and body and feel that falling is failure?

No, I don't share this view, mainly because I think "absolute control" is a dangerous illusion for a climber to indulge in.

JL

For me, the whole point is pushing into unknown territory, its about building courage and confidence. I have never thought of climbing as an opportunity to obsess over control. Control is important, but to me the most incredible and personally beneficial aspect of climbing is pushing myself to take reasonable risks, to struggle against irrational or unfounded fear (the fear of falling, usually). I am never more disappointed in my climbing than than when I down climb or take rather than pushing out of my comfort zone. The idea of climbing being an exercise of total control seems, to me, preposterous.

I guess I also want to add, that I downclimb all the time; particularly climbing trad routes. Downclimbing is pure strategy and aids in the problem solving aspect of the sport. I just try to do it in a way where I am finding a place to rest while staying on the wall and my own strength, not downclimbing to gear.