New Trad climber, what's in your multi-pitch pack?

A little background- I've been climbing trad for a couple months and recently went on a multi-pitch trip to Red Rocks. My climbing partner had been to Red Rocks with a guide the previous year and having climbed together for a summer felt we'd do fine on the easier routes out there. I have a background in rope rescue and he's been through various multi-pitch classes so we felt fine in regards to safety.

The biggest problem we had was with our pack. My climbing buddy is the token "gear guy" and on our first day we found ourselves racked with about double what the guide book called for + even more gear (BIG GEAR) in the pack, including 4L of water, about 8 snack bars, first aid kit, shoes, belay coats, sweaters, gloves, hats, etc to a weight of probably around 30lbs, making the 5.7 we were on feel damn near impossible with the stupid pack. We were also climbing with double 10.3mm ropes that added a significant weight on some of the longer pitches.

By the end of the trip we had slimmed down to a camelpak backpack with 2L of water total, the rack the guidebook called for with only 3 extra mid sized cams, 2 cliff bars, sweaters, jackets, lights, etc, and a small first aid kit. Although we were still climbing with the double ropes. The weather was cold so we weren't drinking a lot of water which really helped cut down on the weight.

We're planning on headed back out to Red Rocks in the end of february and I'd like to be a little more efficient to be able to get some longer climbs in with the limited available light. Weather will hopefully be in the low to mid 60's at that time.

This is what I'm thinking:

Climbing with a single rope and packing the other one (to be used for the raps if called for), I was pretty happy with the slimmed down rack of whatever the guidebook called for possibly plus a few more mid sized pieces, 2L of water in a bladder, 2 snack bars, GPS, lights, and that's it.

How do you guys pack for multi-pitch climbs (1000' ish) in moderate weather? Any tips or tricks to speed things up would be greatly appreciated. Would climbing with half ropes workout to be lighter than packing the extra 10.2?

-Nick

Ditch the second rope. Unless you're rappelling it's pointless and if you're rappelling either get a set of double ropes (half ropes) or use a single lead line and a thin tag line that you keep in your pack (8 mil or so)

You might ditch most of your first aid kit. If someone falls and breaks their spine nothing you can carry with you will be very effective given the length of self rescuing from several hundred feet off the ground and a few miles from the road. You're better off getting someone to come rescue you with litters, helicopters and all that jazz. If they fall and get a big cut or break a minor bone then you can improvise a splint or way to clean and cover a cut. Pain killers and a few sterile dressings sound like enough for what you're doing. What's between your ears is more important than what's in your pack.

If weather is in the low to mid 60's then you don't really need what sounds like a lot of clothing. Pick your climbs wisely so you're not in the shade or in the wind. Getting out of the wind is harder so wear what will keep you comfy while climbing and bring a windbreaker type jacket for belays. I rarely bring a jacket because if it's windy enough that it feels unpleasant to me then it's probably not going to matter what I wear because it's just going to be unpleasant regardless. I went climbing yesterday with just a fleece on and it was in the low fifties. When the wind wasn't blowing and I was in the sun it was comfortable. Otherwise I was a little uncomfortable.

Ditch the GPS, especially in Red Rocks. If there's any question of which way to go, just look for the lights. Learning to read a map and use a compass is lighter anyways and in my experience more reliable. Don't need to change the batteries on a map and compass. Neither is really necessary in Red Rocks which I would consider deep front country at best. Depending on your tolerance for lack of water you might bring it down a liter. Water's heavy but it's kind of a big trade off because you'll feel like crap if you need it.

If you're trying to climb faster then think faster. Don't chit chat at belays, have the gear ready to exchange, make your transitions fast, and then when you're climbing move quickly, not recklessly but fast. Also, linking pitches is a good way to save time. Don't set gear that's difficult for your second to remove. Keep things organized. For me there's a big difference between moving fast and having a good time. Sometimes they coincide but most of the time if I'm trying to move fast I don't focus much on the aesthetics of the climbing.

What I bring for long multipitch (7 pitches or more):

Single rope and tag line or doubles. If It's a walk off I just bring a single.
Double rack (depending on what the guidebook says to bring I may carry more of one thing and less of another)
1 L water (I for some reason don't need much water most of the time)
Headlamp (if the moon is bright or your partner is willing to shine the light for you it's possible to get by with one or no headlamps)
Clif Bar (power bar, food of some sort)

That's it.

Nick,

I've been climbing multipitch for 10 years now, up to 12a, up to 2500 feet long. Here is my recommendation.

NO double ropes. They are a pain in the ass to manage. If the desent requires 2 ropes, I bring a lead line and an 8.6 (1 of my 2 doubles) and tie them together for the rap. If the decent does not require 2 ropes, I just bring one with the knowledge that I may need to leave gear if bailing mid-route. That has very rarely happened.

I hate climbing with a pack and almost always avoid it for day-climbs. I bring a cliff bar and sandwich in one cargo pocket and my headlamp in my other cargo pocket. I also have a photocopy of the topo in one pocket in a large ziploc (NOT the full guidebook). I clip 1 liter (do not clip to the top plastic piece of a nalgene!) and my approach shoes (if not rapping the route) to my harness.

I never bring more gear than the topo notes (if you are new to trad leading, a little extra gear won't hurt). I usually split 1 liter for the day with my partner, sometimes I bring 1 liter for myself, and have brought more than 1 liter for myself less than five times ever. Drink a ton before you leave the ground and have some back at your pack for when you return. You don't need a GPS, bring a photocopy of the desent with you.

I usually only carry a pack if I am not sure what the weather will do and want a windbreaker or rainjacket. For the really big epic routes I bring an emergency blanket in a pack.

I'll sell you one of my barely used 8.6 ropes if you want.

Agree. I don't want to sandbag you, but I've always found climbing to be more fun when I've taken less.

Clip a 0.5L to your harness, put a bar in your pocket, and tie a windbreaker around your waist. You can also stuff extra junk, like a small headlamp, stocking cap, whatever, into your descent shoes and clip those to your harness.

Look for routes with walk-offs or single rope raps so you don't need to lug around two thick ropes.

I know there's not much first aid I would feel comfortable giving on route beyond what I could do with some tape. Maybe you've got more training, but I think climbing injuries would be either minor (tape) or major (self rescue). Maybe some painkillers in case you need to hike out with a busted ankle?

Again, I don't want to sandbag into a bad situation, so if you feel like you need a ton of stuff, maybe you do and you should get experience this way. When you work up to feeling comfortable moving fast on long route, your kit will definitely decrease.

-Scott

I generally plan my days the same whether I'll be returning to the base of the climb or not.
Focus on a system that will work best on the climbing, not the hiking to the climb.

Consider bringing just 1 small pack between the two of you.
When climbing have the follower wear it.
If you are on a chimney either trail it using a double length sling from your harness or have the leader haul it up using the second rope.

In cooler weather you don't need so much water. Try 2 liters max for the two of you. Obviously this will vary from person to person.

Keep extra clothing simple. A light sweater and a superlight weight rain coat that will also be your windbreaker works for me for most conditions.
If its really cold then consider having 1 person do most of the leading so that you don't have to sit for 2 pitches while you belay a follower who then becomes the leader.

The tag line can be trailed from the back of your harness so you can focus more on the climbing. This way your balance isn't affected by an extra 10 lbs pulling you backwards. Also you won't need such a large pack this way. It and the main rope can be tied in a backpack for the carry in.
There are advantages to having the leader or the follower trail it, I generally just leave it on one person if the climbing isn't super hard so you are futzing around less. Otherwise give it to the follower so the leader has one less thing to deal with.

Don't forget a headlamp per person. They weight nothing and you are guaranteed to need one if you don't bring it.

If I elect to carry a camelbak (which is not that often), it will contain water, a clif bar, a headlamp, and a rainshell. That's it. If you expect to need more, learn to climb faster on shorter routes so that you don't need that much on bigger routes. The more you carry over and above the rack and the rope, the slower you will go. In cases where I need double ropes to get down, I typically find a second party of similar ability to climb the route with. Thus, both parties aren't carrying two ropes, and your descent is possible. Obviously, this ties your fortunes to theirs, so I suggest climbing quite a bit with them first.

Agree with all the above. You need to come to terms that very often safety means light and fast.
If a pack is necessary there should be a small one that the 2nd climber wears. If you are swapping leads you swap the pack when you swap the rack. If your route has a lot of OW then ditch the pack option.
If you are concered about warmth, bring heat packs.
+1 for drinking as much water a possible before you leave the ground.

As for 1st aid: you can keep a full kit on the ground with the rest of your stuff (so long as you are returning to the base of the route at the end of the day). On route you only need enough 1st aid to stop bleeding (tape and t-shirt). You can get fancy and build splints once back on the ground.

jmeizis pretty much nailed it. I brought two singles when I did cat in the hat (rappelling on Red Rocks multi-pitch can be faster and much more convenient that walking off due to long walk offs). get halves or twins or single & tag line. Don't skimp on the head lamp, climbing, rappeling, or exit can be in the dark. It's easy to get hurt without them. Get one that can fit on your helmet. Water is essential, but sports drinks hydrate just as well and help with muscular fatigue.

Here's gear for a two person team

Rack
-read up on the topo
-doubles in nuts (lightweight) on two to four carabiners
-double up on the essential cams (depending on the topo)
-two 7mil x 20ft cordellete. with 1 or two lockers each
-trad/alpine draws
- 7-10 48" slings tripled up
- 1-2 96" slings quadrupled up (easy extension and usable at qd length
-any favorite other personal favs (pink tri-cam, big-bro, hex etc.)

Pack
-day packs like the BD Bullet or Shot work perfect for one day multi-pitch, and limit the your total volume
-1 liter/person for the day, if you are rapping w/ a long approach/exit split another liter between the approach and exit and stash it
-1-2 light sandwiches or bars per person
-printout of the topo no book

Clothing
-check the weather dress appropriately
-be versatile without too much
-good all around shoe easy to get off at belay ledges, remember to clip them in (I like the 5.10 Mocassym
-a hardshell will keep the wind/water out, the body heat in, and can be stuffed in that pack
-wear a helmet, and most headlamps can mount unintrusively on your helmet

Misc.
-having cellphone reception can mean life and death in an accident
-desert climbing has drastic temperature swings
-if you are rapping and can meet another team at the summit, two teams can each takde one single an share the rope load for rapping

2-5 pitches - clip a bottle of water to the harness thats it, headlamp in pocket
5+ - Small pack i carry regardless of lead/second. 2-3 L of water depending on temps/wind etc...2-4 bars of food, small first aid kit, ultralight bivy blanket, headlamp, photocopy of route, clothing conditional on weather. sometimes hat and glove and jacket rarely more. If its cold i'm usually already wearing a fleece vest for core insulation.

Get the lightest approach shoes you can deal with. I cant do flip-flops but i use some meshy trail runners usually clipped to harness or outside of small pack.

your only extra weight should really be water and some food, and that varies by individual. I dont drink alot, but if i need it and dont have it i slow down incredibly. If you are going to bring extra layers then they need to be ultralight but functional enough to get you down/bivy safely which doesnt always equate with comfortably!

Sometimes i make my second carry all the crap

Doubles arent all that problematic if you know how to work them. They can make life easier, but more often than not they make life complicated. I like using mine, but havent done 10+ pitches on them yet.

T

I almost always carry a pack, either a bullet (16L) or a hollowpoint (20L) - good training for alpine routes. Headlamp, 1-2L h2o (I drink a lot on route), roll of tape, handful of Ibu, couple of bars. +1 for above comments on second rope. Ask around. Many routes that the guidebook says to bring 2 ropes on can be rapped with a 70, esp. in RR. If you need two ropes, take a half rope as your tag line. That way, when your rope gets stuck, you have a cord you can actually re-lead on. a knife, and a lighter, which are always in my pockets anyway. If its a rap descent that doesn't get done often, i may carry extra cord to cut up for rap stations, or just cut one of my cordalettes. a quiklink, since it's easier to add one to a crappy station than some hoopty hollow aluminum rap ring.
Personally I carry a double rack on just about everything. That way you always have more gear available to build a belay. A little heavier? yep. Faster? you decide.
Clothing for RR in Feb: If forecast good, Carhartts, an R1 hoody, and a houdini windshirt. Maybe an extra fleece. a warm hat - you can stash it in your helmet if it's too warm to climb in.
Use a gear sling. It makes transitions faster. Second re-racks on harness, leader gives them the sling with the remaining gear. Don't take the time to re-rack it perfect, just go. Transitions should take one minute, no more. Use an autoblocking belay device while belaying a second so you can go hands-free to drink, eat, re-rack, smoke, look at the topo, etc. while the second's climbing.
Manage your rope(s). Nothing wastes time like dealing with a stuck rope. If using a tag line, leader flakes it at each belay - hang it in a sling if you need. No having the second drag the tag line, esp. in RR. too much crap to get hung on.

I believe it was Yvon Chouinard who said: "If you carry bivy gear, you'll use it."

If you are in bear country make sure you bring running shoes for the walk-off, but also make sure your partner doesn't. You might have to make use of a sharp knife too, if he's still too fast.

After reading all of these comments, to me it's pretty apparent that it really depends on what sort of climbing/experience you're out to get. I, myself, climb for relaxation and the aesthetics, not for speed or difficulty. Transitions take anywhere from 5 to 15 minutes and I often UN-link pitches (3 pitch climb becomes 5, etc) mostly to avoid rope drag but I like watching my partner climb and I like setting up belay stations. Anyway, enough about that.

I have the BD Hollowpoint which I love because I can fit my entire rack, harness, helmet and shoes in it for the approach (sometimes I have to use creative cramming) but then I have a pack for climbing where I put an extra layer, approach shoes if it's a walk-off and water and snack. I also carry a whistle, headlamp and a roll of athletic tape and a small section of duct tape. If I haven't done the route before I'll carry 10ft or so of 9/16 webbing for rap anchors. -Total pack weight when climbing is maybe 5 lbs with water which doesn't slow anybody down, besides for some reason I hate shoes and jackets hanging from my harness. On my harness I have a biner with prussik, knife, fingernail clippers (which I seem to use a ton) and a rap ring and quick link.

As far as gear, I generally climb with a single and only climb routes that i can get down with that. I am hoping for a pair of doubles this holiday season but if not I'll probably get a small diameter tag line. Also, if it is a climb that I have not done before I only look to see if the description calls for more than the "standard rack" otherwise I take my 1.5 set of cams, 1.5 set of nuts and set of tri-cams to #2. You may say I carry too much crap, but when you carry it everytime, you really don't notice it much.

Now that you know you definitely shouldn't carry a pack climbing, this is the one I use on long multipitch. Very light, stuffs in main pack, very low profile, very cheap ( especially on sale)
rei.com/product/778466

Rick Blair wrote:Now that you know you definitely shouldn't carry a pack climbing, this is the one I use on long multipitch. Very light, stuffs in main pack, very low profile, very cheap ( especially on sale) rei.com/product/778466

+1

I've used mine on dozens of pitches in the black, on the diamond, in rr(chimneys, ow, everything)... its great for long multipitch climbs. Its tough and cheap.

But don't bring a backpack unless you absolutely need it!

My 2 cents-
Water, descent shoes and candy.

Move quick, move quick and move quick. I don't know if they are still around, but John Bouchard (wild things) made a career of "light is right:

The faster you go, the quicker you get to the beer

Thanks a lot for all the replies. I had some ideas for next time and I think most of the replies here confirmed them. I'm going to show this thread to my buddy and hopefully he'll agree and we can avoid the pack alltogether.

We were bringing two liters in a bladder that we were sharing but I think that can be cut in half for the climbing portion at least if it isn't hot out. We were carrying just one pack but I think I like the idea of two small individual packs if the climbing is easy. The first aid kit went from a full on first aid kit to a few bandages and tape which I'll probably take because it doesn't take up room. The GPS was due to a headlamp dying last time we were out there and us getting off trail and it taking way to long to find the parking lot. I think fresh batteries before the trip would probably solve that.

One question I do have is about those who said they used a smaller tagline to rap with. Can you explain that setup? If there's a way to rap down without carrying two heavy ropes I'm all for it. I'd like to enjoy the climb also but when I say we were climbing slow I mean sloooow. It took us almost 7 hours to get to the bolts at the top of cat in the hat.

John I really appreciate the offer I'll definitely take you up on it as the time gets closer to our next trip.

supertopo.com/climbers-foru…

I didn't read this whole thread, just did a fast search. Anyway, take the first picture and on the pull side (not the chain side) is where you tie your tag line/pull line.

Make sure you understand this inside and out and what knots to tie before you weight it hundreds of feet up.

+1 for the above post. That more or less illustrates the biner block rap. re: the tiresome discussion on Supertaco, the knot aka EDK is called the flat overhand.

No need whatsoever for rap lines to be same diameter. I typically use a 9.4 lead line. If I need double rope raps, I tag along (on my haul loop) an 8.4 half rope. For knot, use a flat overhand (aka euro death knot) with 18" tails. tighten it down well, make sure its dressed, and it'll be fine. Some people, in areas that don't have the same, uh, rope-sticking problems as we do, will use a piece of 6-7mm as a pull cord. Properly done, that would require a biner block rappel, so the skinny wouldn't slip (it's a canyoneering thing - PM me if you've never seen it). The crappy thing about that is that if your lead line gets stuck somewhere up above you while pulling the rope, you have to use a piece of 6mm accessory cord to lead up to get it, then downlead. Trust me when i say you don't want to do that. Releading up on a half rope is not nearly as gripping.
+1 on the fresh batteries. Feel free to PM me or Wilder if you have more specific questions.

Wehling wrote:http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1165306/Rapping-rappelling-not-the-music-dufus I didn't read this whole thread, just did a fast search. Anyway, take the first picture and on the pull side (not the chain side) is where you tie your tag line/pull line. Make sure you understand this inside and out and what knots to tie before you weight it hundreds of feet up.

Makes perfect sense, thanks! Looks like a figure 8 on a bight, any issues with it getting sucked into the rap ring and getting stuck?

Not if it's a normal rap ring or quiklink. If they were biners or large rings I may not use that strategy. or just have to pull harder.

Light is right...until it isn't. What Bouchard, who had a very high tolerance for risk, might do in the Alps, Andes, or Himalaya isn't what most of us want or need to be doing on Cat in the Hat.

You were way overloaded originally, but I'd try to pare down sensibly---don't be overly influenced by absolute minimal kits, which work great until it gets colder and/or windier than you expected or someone gets hurt or something delays you.

I do agree about the minimal first aid kit though. As for the rack, one to one and a half complete sets of nuts and a double cam set ought to do it unless the guidebook specifically mentions the need for more than two cams in some sizes.

Mid sixties in February? Maybe, but my trips to Red Rocks have been in mid-March and mid-sixties would have been among the warmer days we had. Go up on something long with a wind shell, light pants and an R1 and you'll be getting hypothermic if the temps are in the high forties/low fifties and the wind really picks up, as it does all the time in Red Rocks. (I mention this from very unpleasant personal experience.)

I like having the second carry a small pack. I used a BD Bullet pack for years. When it wore out, I got a Petzl Bug, which is a better mousetrap. Having a pile of stuff banging and swaying and tangling on your harness has never seemed to me like a superior idea, and if you have to get into some cracks it can be a royal pain. I think the small pack, carried for face-climbing and hanging from the belay loop in chimneys, is a much better option. And, for climbing in February, into that pack should go a bit more clothing than you can comfortably carry on your person.

One of the biggest dead weight additions is two pairs of approach shoes. Fit your climbing shoes so you can get down in them---I'm assuming you're not trying to get up 5.14 or V12. This won't be good for long descents with a lot of hiking, but as long as there is mostly scrambling with are relatively little walking and a return to a pack, you should be able to make it out in your climbing shoes.

I think double ropes are the way to go, but I'm pretty biased---I don't even own a single rope any more. If you are careful about piling and stacking, you should have very few tangling problems. People laugh at me, but on long multipitch routes with doubles, carrying Metolius rope hooks and stacking the ropes on the hooks completely eliminates any tangling problems. (This is because you can lift the loops off the hook, rather than pulling them out pile flaked over the anchor tie-in.)

The worst rope solution, in my opinion, though a very popular one, is to use a thin tag line, too thin to lead on, e.g. 7mm. (And how do folks who dislike managing 8.5 mm doubles put up with the far greater tangling potential of a 7mm tag line?)

You should have two headlamps, not one. The Petzl E-lite is fantastic, and the plastic E-lite case is big enough to allow the taping of a spare set of batteries inside. When down-climbing and/or rappelling in the dark, both climbers will be much better off with their own light source, and the weight difference is inconsequential.

I wouldn't bring a GPS unit a climb, but their backtracking function can be enormously helpful if you are benighted in the desert, at which point every sandy space between bushes looks like a trail. "Following the Vegas lights" sounds good, but might get you nowhere near your car. So if you'll be leaving a pack somewhere and coming back to it before hiking out, record a GPS track on the way in and leave the GPS in the pack. It could save you hours of wandering on the way out if you have to return in the dark---again I'm speaking from experience here.

Going fast is certainly related to not being loaded with excessive baggage, but once you refine things so as not to be severely weighed down, I am far from convinced that further lightening makes all that much difference for most people. This is because, for ordinary climbers, going fast is not about moving fast, it is about having all systems working efficiently. Reading the route and not heading up into blind alleys, getting the right piece off the rack and placing it in the correct spot immediately, cleaning efficiently and arriving at the belay organized, and changing over efficiently, these are where most of us can extract the most speed benefits. The extra fleece in your pack is going to make little if any difference, and might save you from a world of discomfort, if not worse.