New Mexico rock modification discussion
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Since there seems to be no moderation for comments such as these: |
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George Perkins wrote:Do you want a few MountainProject administrators who aren't any more important than anyone else to "censor" comments on a few out-of-line ethical issues because the Forest Service might see them? There's been criticism about that in the past, even on things that clearly crossed well over the line. If there's anything that's a "gray area" we almost always discuss it before doing anything but in general it's best if the moderation is limited. George PerkinsBasically I am asking that moderators ask people to move their rants to the forums. When someone is looking for information about a route, problem or an area I don't think they are looking for a detailed list of someone's perceived transgressions at many other areas in New Mexico. I think this is a discussion that should happen, but not in a random, snipey, spiteful manner. |
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Quit whining and go wash your clothes. If you like routes that are modified and think it is OK then go climb them. I don't give a shit. But don't get all butt hurt when someone points out that a specific person was responsible. In a god dam wilderness area! What you, my dirty pants friend fail to realize is that many of those areas went un-modified for twenty or thirty years before such parties took it upon themselves to "re-work" existing lines to make them harder. The easy chossy lines at big blobk go un-glued(for now). |
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Thanks for the peaceful wishes Tom, I'll think of them while I'm whining and washing my dirty pants. |
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Well considering Timy like many "modifiers" never bothered to ask the local community WE did not have a chance to voice our objections.(in the early days) Since then many of us have stated we do not accept it. So in your opinion who decides? |
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PS: I am not worried about Timy or any other person reinforcing a hold or two on a route. I am not going to make such a micro argument when everyone seems to want a grey scale. We have entire crags where half or more of the holds are coated in hilti glue or seca. Many of the old good hard lines at Big Block are now bondoed up. You actually have to climb glue? And to be clear, I think chipping is just about the lamest thing you can do to the rock. Totally weak. Get stronger or walk away. |
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HA! So you are someone I know. That is priceless. Yeah I spread glue all over Spook back in 98 while under the guidance of Timy. And very shortly after, I went back and felt stupid for what I had allowed myself to get involved with. It is called learning the hard way. Why do you care about losing access anyhow? There is tons of shitty blank rock outside of the wilderness areas. Just grab your homies and get to work. And yes, I am a local to this state(as well as a couple others). |
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How am I a troll? I am anonymous, and have explained why. I asked that the vitriol be moved from route descriptions to a forum, and now it has been. I am not trying to draw out an emotional response. I am not name calling or using absolutes. |
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thomas ellis wrote:Well considering Timy like many "modifiers" never bothered to ask the local community WE did not have a chance to voice our objections.(in the early days) Since then many of us have stated we do not accept it. So in your opinion who decides? And did you miss the part about this happening in the Sandias in a wilderness area where it is absolutely not permitted wether the climbers like it or not. Some local climbers are even power drilling sport routes up there. I am an active developer in this community and so are many of my friends and our ethic is simple. Clean the holds and climb. I would have left this alone if it were not for what happened at Screaming Jihad. And further more, if this shit happens in Roy or any other area that is being developed with a clean ethic, I will take this to a whole new level.I think the ethics vary crag to crag, even within a state 'covered in glue'. You listed several good examples, modification is not accepted in the Sandias, by law or otherwise, and I haven't been to Roy, but obviously it is your crew's area so modifying it would be against the local ethics. On the dirt wall, the ethic is that it is ok to reinforce the rock. This ethic probably doesn't apply to other parts of even Socorro with more solid rock. I would rather climb on glued holds at big block and have something to climb in town that is steep than nothing at all. |
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Leadership is the act of setting the right example, serving as a role model, having actions that speak louder than words, standing up for what you think is the "right" thing, showing the way, holding to the purpose and espousing the positive beliefs. |
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I have explained why I am anonymous. I am not willing to be stereoyped as a chipper and gluer by the purist crowd. |
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an example of non black/white thinking from joekindkid.com/ |
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Come on Chris. A leader? Really? It sounds pretty but highly unrealistic. I agree there are many grey areas and think by discussing these things in public (this is a public forum) we can voice our concerns and educate on the history. |
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Eric Whitbeck wrote:This post was originally a comment in Screaming Jihad Public forums are not the best place to air our grievances. To the USFS we are all the same and Three Gun has seen enough controversy this season with powerdrilling. Can we please, please not threaten climbing access in the foothills. Thomas Ellis wrote:This post was originally a comment in Screaming Jihad I think a public forum is the perfect place. If the climbing gets threatened it will be because of a climbers actions there! And also due to local climbers not wanting to get involved. maybe it will take a few areas getting closed for people to wake up. Our crags are covered in glue for christ sake.To me these two juxtaposed comments have equal and valid merit. On one hand we do not want to air our DIRTYLAUNDRY but on the other hand we do want a place to share our knowledge of these sensitive topics. Public forums are a nice convenient way to communicate but can be very detrimental too. Yes Tom a leader in this is unrealistic but we should strive for constructive solutions to controversial topics rather than ranting about everything that is wrong. It is easy to air our DIRTYLAUNDRY but it is not so easy to fix damage done. I think one thing we all have in common is to ultimately protect the rock and our right to climb it. We all understand that Mountain Project is a public forum and everyone can read this including our opposition. So in that respect I feel contributors should be tactful and constructive in these forums. That is all I mean and in reading this it seems to me like DIRTYLAUNDRY is just trying to stir the soup for personal entertainment. Not productive. |
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sandstonesloper wrote:We should strive for constructive solutions to controversial topicsI totally agree with Chris that these discussions could, and should, be productive. I think these forums would be a success even if they only show folks who came to climbing more recently that there are varied opinions and that no consensus endorsement or tolerance exists in New Mexico for rock modifications like chipping and gluing. Local ethics should be borne out of dialog and mutual understanding. Following my own chain of logic, I guess that means a local ethic might include some forms of rock modification as an acceptable practice. Many have put Wyoming forth as an example of a place where comfortized holds are accepted, but full-scale chipping is not. Regulations on almost all public lands prohibit modifying the rock, however, so if we want to use these resources responsibly then we wouldn't chip and glue. antagonist69 wrote:Well, yes and no hosebeats. Some of routes [at Dirt Wall, Big Block, and the Temple] were climable, some of them were too loose and dangerous. Some of the routes did get harder just like you said, and I don't know about that being such a good thing either. All of those routes at these crags were not climable though, that is not true. A few of the routes actually got easier. No, this topic is certinly not a black and white one, and the situation is not as clear as you state it to be. It's funny how one's perspective changes over time huh?Big Block and the Temple did not need glue to be climbed; I remember years with plenty of bouldering before the Sika came. Holds sometimes broke a little with the annual freeze/thaw cycles, but that did not mean those areas needed the modifications they received. At the Dirt Wall if the routes were dirty, loose, and dangerous, walking away would also have been a reasonable option. There is no logic that mandates Dirt Wall had to be developed the way it was. According to Antogonist, some of the lines needed glue to be climbed, but they also did not have to become new routes. The decision to glue the lines on Dirt Wall was one made mostly by Timy along with a limited number of others like Lorne Rainey who glued Bob Marley Meets Master Ganj if I remember correctly (lest someone recoil in horror that I outed another gluer, I believe Lorne no longer climbs and would not care if he is mentioned here [if he does I will gladly remove his name]). I don't imagine Timy asked the opinion of Socorro climbers or anyone else before he started the route development at the Dirt Wall (or the many other areas he modified). In the case of Big Block, I and other friends had climbed there long before the glue came and just because we or other climbers still might spend a nice summer evening bouldering there doesn't mean we are implicitly supporting the actions of Timy or others. More succinctly stated, the fact that lots of folks climb at Big Block doesn't mean they like glue or chipping. dirtylaundry wrote:I think the ethics vary crag to crag, even within a state 'covered in glue'. You listed several good examples, modification is not accepted in the Sandias, by law or otherwise, and I haven't been to Roy, but obviously it is your crew's area so modifying it would be against the local ethics. On the dirt wall, the ethic is that it is ok to reinforce the rock. This ethic probably doesn't apply to other parts of even Socorro with more solid rock. I really am trying to keep this conversation civil, but the above statement cracked me up since dirtylaundry is arguing that the Socorro ethic changes somehow as one walks up the hill to the Dirt Wall and suddenly becomes glue-friendly. I suggest we assign local ethics to certain holds even as well as walls or areas. That way once a hold is modified, the prevailing ethic for that specific hold allows for chipping or gluing ;) None of my posts have been intended as rants or personal attacks on Timy. The tone of a forum post is almost impossible to read correctly and everyone projects their own feelings on to each other's words. I am glad folks can talk openly about this issue since it has hidden in the dark for a while and I do think we benefit from a periodic discussion. To echo some of George Perkins' earlier comments, most of us value climbing on National Forest and BLM lands and want to do everything we can to ensure we can continue to enjoy our public lands. All of the opinions expressed above are important to be heard and I hope this dialog leads to improved conditions or understandings rather than limited access. |
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One thing is for sure, we climbers are an autonomous group. I hope it stays that way forever. |
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sandstonesloper wrote:http://www.dpmclimbing.com/climbing-videos/watch/plan-b-new-mexican-mudstone I would hate to see this area closed!That is fine looking.....stone. |
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William, |
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sandstonesloper wrote:One thing is for sure...http://www.dpmclimbing.com/climbing-videos/watch/plan-b-new-mexican-mudstoneLMAO... One other thing is for shure, a few ascents of that and it's gone. The other thing is that Farmington sure puts out some oddball climbers. Larry Coats used to dry tool that kinda junk way back before the term existed. why ? you climb what u have, ey? |
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dirtylaundry wrote:William, I am the only dissenting voice so maybe you are correct that no one in the state supports the practices of chipping and gluing. Or, like me, maybe there are those that think it has a time and place but are reticent to put their name out on interweb for beratement.dirtylaundry, I hope you don't think I am berating you. Some of my friends have glued or chipped in the past and we have managed to have some good times talking about it. I guess I just like climbing at areas where the rock is so good that glue is unnecessary. William |
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No, I don't think you are berating, just the general tone towards any discussion of modifying the rock on this forum and the Shelf road forum. Just trying to find a middle ground, but maybe I am the only one. |