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New Mexico rock modification discussion

Original Post
dirtylaundry · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2011 · Points: 0

Since there seems to be no moderation for comments such as these:

"I think the glue reference was more general and referred to such beautiful areas as U Mound, Glue Mound (the bench above and to the SE of U Mound proper), and the Tram boulders. Not all of these were the work of Fairchiseler, but we all know who else was involved. We can thank him for gluing the Temple and Big Block (and drilling pockets at the Woodie and Eerie). Most of this happened years ago, but some is much more recent and on-going as with his development at the Bat Cave."

In area descriptions such as this:

mountainproject.com/v/new_m…

perhaps it is best to discuss these hot, life-threatening topics in what is called a 'forum'

...yes, 'dirtylaudry' is obviously a fake name, but I am not willing to have my own name dragged through the public mud like the some people like to do to other people without the courtesy of contacting them privately. I am also not willing to have my name on the radar of the Forest Service, who may be monitoring this.

I, for one, do thank Mr Chiselfield (and others, but they don't count, only Timy) for the work at big block, and from the traffic there mid-summer, many others do too. I am not strong enough for the Temple, but if I was, I would appreciate that too.

An area not listed is Dirt Wall in Socorro. Lots of traffic on well--protected moderates on cold days an hour away. Since I climb 5.11, I love the area. It has glue (from timy and others, but again, only timy counts), and it isn't easy on the eyes, but the climbing wouldn't exist without it. But wait! It is such a travesty to the state, everyone should stop going there. Instead, let's either climb in the gym or burn fuel at $3 a gallon and drive many hours to find perfect rock that requires no modification. That would be pure and perfect, without having to consider a gray area.

dirtylaundry · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2011 · Points: 0
George Perkins wrote:Do you want a few MountainProject administrators who aren't any more important than anyone else to "censor" comments on a few out-of-line ethical issues because the Forest Service might see them? There's been criticism about that in the past, even on things that clearly crossed well over the line. If there's anything that's a "gray area" we almost always discuss it before doing anything but in general it's best if the moderation is limited. George Perkins
Basically I am asking that moderators ask people to move their rants to the forums. When someone is looking for information about a route, problem or an area I don't think they are looking for a detailed list of someone's perceived transgressions at many other areas in New Mexico.

I think this is a discussion that should happen, but not in a random, snipey, spiteful manner.
thomas ellis · · abq · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 2,615

Quit whining and go wash your clothes. If you like routes that are modified and think it is OK then go climb them. I don't give a shit. But don't get all butt hurt when someone points out that a specific person was responsible. In a god dam wilderness area! What you, my dirty pants friend fail to realize is that many of those areas went un-modified for twenty or thirty years before such parties took it upon themselves to "re-work" existing lines to make them harder. The easy chossy lines at big blobk go un-glued(for now).
One more thing, to mr Perkins, this is not an attack on Timy. He just happens to be the one fucking with the crags I have been climbing at since 1992. I have confronted him many times and argued my points but he is set in his way. I respect his ability to stay focused on such a stupid path of destruction (sarcasm) and he will do whatever suits his own interests. And I will continue to call him out.
Peace

dirtylaundry · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2011 · Points: 0

Thanks for the peaceful wishes Tom, I'll think of them while I'm whining and washing my dirty pants.

an example of 'grey area' relativism from wikipedia:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport…

"Chipping, comfortizing, and reinforcingChanging the natural features of rock is often frowned upon, but in many parts of the world it is still accepted to some extent. At some areas, "chipping" of the rock with a chisel or similar vtool to create a hold that did not exist naturally is considered acceptable. This is particularly true in some quarries as well as some European crags. However, at many other areas, local ethics absolutely forbid this.[4]

Comfortizing holds often involves aggressively cleaning a route to the point where sharp holds have been filed down, often making them somewhat easier to use. While many climbers frown on this, in some areas comfortizing is considered acceptable to a point.

Reinforcing rock with glue is the most widely accepted modification to natural features in the sport climbing world. When a popular route is climbed over and over, holds may become looser and closer to breaking. Sometimes, these holds will be reinforced to prevent them from breaking. Other times, if a hold entirely breaks off, it may be glued back on. In most areas, these practices are considered acceptable if done neatly."

thomas ellis · · abq · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 2,615

Well considering Timy like many "modifiers" never bothered to ask the local community WE did not have a chance to voice our objections.(in the early days) Since then many of us have stated we do not accept it. So in your opinion who decides?
And did you miss the part about this happening in the Sandias in a wilderness area where it is absolutely not permitted wether the climbers like it or not. Some local climbers are even power drilling sport routes up there.
I am an active developer in this community and so are many of my friends and our ethic is simple. Clean the holds and climb. I would have left this alone if it were not for what happened at Screaming Jihad. And further more, if this shit happens in Roy or any other area that is being developed with a clean ethic, I will take this to a whole new level.

thomas ellis · · abq · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 2,615

PS: I am not worried about Timy or any other person reinforcing a hold or two on a route. I am not going to make such a micro argument when everyone seems to want a grey scale. We have entire crags where half or more of the holds are coated in hilti glue or seca. Many of the old good hard lines at Big Block are now bondoed up. You actually have to climb glue? And to be clear, I think chipping is just about the lamest thing you can do to the rock. Totally weak. Get stronger or walk away.

thomas ellis · · abq · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 2,615

HA! So you are someone I know. That is priceless. Yeah I spread glue all over Spook back in 98 while under the guidance of Timy. And very shortly after, I went back and felt stupid for what I had allowed myself to get involved with. It is called learning the hard way. Why do you care about losing access anyhow? There is tons of shitty blank rock outside of the wilderness areas. Just grab your homies and get to work. And yes, I am a local to this state(as well as a couple others).
PS: Equal part? Bring it on. I will be your patsy. Blame it all on me. If you love Albuquerque so much then own up. I have tried repeatedly to get you "locals" involved in dialog. No one condones it but no one will say anything when the time is needed(long before internet forums). And now many "locals" and some of them older and more respectable are out there secretly gluing, bolting and modifying shit at the Bat Cave, Crystal Cave, Socorro, The TV Station, Diablo, Rincon Ridge and much more. I learned my lesson a long time ago. Maybe a little public humiliation and ousting might help your friends learn theirs. Just say "Leave the fucking rock alone!" And quit whining at me for speaking my piece.
PSS: The main reason Timy's name is the only one I have used is because he does not hide but the rest of you.......and he knows exactly how I feel.

dirtylaundry · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2011 · Points: 0

How am I a troll? I am anonymous, and have explained why. I asked that the vitriol be moved from route descriptions to a forum, and now it has been. I am not trying to draw out an emotional response. I am not name calling or using absolutes.

The conversation is taking a tone I was hoping for, a discussion of what is appropriate where, when, and by whom, instead of all rock modification is bad all the time. If this wish is trolling, then I am a troll.

dirtylaundry · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2011 · Points: 0
thomas ellis wrote:Well considering Timy like many "modifiers" never bothered to ask the local community WE did not have a chance to voice our objections.(in the early days) Since then many of us have stated we do not accept it. So in your opinion who decides? And did you miss the part about this happening in the Sandias in a wilderness area where it is absolutely not permitted wether the climbers like it or not. Some local climbers are even power drilling sport routes up there. I am an active developer in this community and so are many of my friends and our ethic is simple. Clean the holds and climb. I would have left this alone if it were not for what happened at Screaming Jihad. And further more, if this shit happens in Roy or any other area that is being developed with a clean ethic, I will take this to a whole new level.
I think the ethics vary crag to crag, even within a state 'covered in glue'. You listed several good examples, modification is not accepted in the Sandias, by law or otherwise, and I haven't been to Roy, but obviously it is your crew's area so modifying it would be against the local ethics. On the dirt wall, the ethic is that it is ok to reinforce the rock. This ethic probably doesn't apply to other parts of even Socorro with more solid rock.

I would rather climb on glued holds at big block and have something to climb in town that is steep than nothing at all.
sandstonesloper Carpenter · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2008 · Points: 25

Leadership is the act of setting the right example, serving as a role model, having actions that speak louder than words, standing up for what you think is the "right" thing, showing the way, holding to the purpose and espousing the positive beliefs.

We need more leaders in our climbing community. Nameless trollers carry little credit in my book and cause more harm than good. This thread should be put to rest until a leader steps up to represent.

In the meantime, get out to the crag and be a leader.

Kind Regards,
Chris

dirtylaundry · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2011 · Points: 0

I have explained why I am anonymous. I am not willing to be stereoyped as a chipper and gluer by the purist crowd.

Leadership from the puristists seems to involve name-calling, potty-mouth words, and black/white thinking.

If that makes me not a leader, so be it. However, this discussion has been productive and no less valid.

dirtylaundry · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2011 · Points: 0

an example of non black/white thinking from joekindkid.com/

Jorge Visser and I have been doing small trips to Las Vegas for climbing. This round we went up to the infamous Mount Potasi. This place has always been and area I have never really cared to visit due to the manufacturing. All I have ever heard about the place was that it was an “outdoor gym”, it had “90% manufactured holds”, and that the cave was huge and steep. Over the years Potasi gained a huge stigma in the USA as simply lame and a pathetic style for our current era. This sort of an area is a little hard to find inspiring, but In the end we had a great time climbing up there. I can’t take it seriously as it is an outdoor gym and some of the only natural grips are intermediates. Potasi is what it is and without all of those fake holds there really wouldn’t be much to climb up there. I can enjoy it for a different experience, but I will never find it inspiring and give it the same respect as most cliffs. But hey!… that’s just me. Some people LOVE and who am I to knock it? Besides, life is too short to get caught up in too much ethical debate like why a cliff should suck. Do what you are psyched on and enjoy yourself. [I DO NOT recommend/condone chipping holds]

thomas ellis · · abq · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 2,615

Come on Chris. A leader? Really? It sounds pretty but highly unrealistic. I agree there are many grey areas and think by discussing these things in public (this is a public forum) we can voice our concerns and educate on the history.
Most people outside of new mexico think every crag and group condones chipping. We have a pretty bad rap much like Wyoming. Most locals probably don't realize that much of the modification is recent and on going. Dirt wall was "reworked" just a few years ago. By non locals. We from Albuquerque are non locals to the Socorro crowd. So what we do down there should be inline with their ethics. It was two of the locals, Peck and Nathaniel, who pointed out to me what I had done at spook was so offensive to them. I talked at length to both of them and understood how my selfish actions had taken something special away from their climbing experience. This type of respect is needed in our community.
I am not a purist or fundamentalist. What is going on down at the Bat Cave I have been aware of since the beginning. I have not made a big deal out of it. It is their crag. I choose not to go there or be a part of it. But, Three Gunn is one of my local crags and the ethics are clear. We as a community were ignored. As is the case at many of the more popular areas in this state.
I mostly hope the next generation (like dirty laundry) understand that it is not accepted by all and that it does not have to be the future of New Mexico. Lots of new climbing is being developed in the state at the moment and I hope some of you will choose to climb it more or less the way you find it. Just a small hope.

sandstonesloper Carpenter · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2008 · Points: 25
Eric Whitbeck wrote:This post was originally a comment in Screaming Jihad Public forums are not the best place to air our grievances. To the USFS we are all the same and Three Gun has seen enough controversy this season with powerdrilling. Can we please, please not threaten climbing access in the foothills.
Thomas Ellis wrote:This post was originally a comment in Screaming Jihad I think a public forum is the perfect place. If the climbing gets threatened it will be because of a climbers actions there! And also due to local climbers not wanting to get involved. maybe it will take a few areas getting closed for people to wake up. Our crags are covered in glue for christ sake.
To me these two juxtaposed comments have equal and valid merit. On one hand we do not want to air our DIRTYLAUNDRY but on the other hand we do want a place to share our knowledge of these sensitive topics. Public forums are a nice convenient way to communicate but can be very detrimental too. Yes Tom a leader in this is unrealistic but we should strive for constructive solutions to controversial topics rather than ranting about everything that is wrong. It is easy to air our DIRTYLAUNDRY but it is not so easy to fix damage done. I think one thing we all have in common is to ultimately protect the rock and our right to climb it. We all understand that Mountain Project is a public forum and everyone can read this including our opposition. So in that respect I feel contributors should be tactful and constructive in these forums. That is all I mean and in reading this it seems to me like DIRTYLAUNDRY is just trying to stir the soup for personal entertainment. Not productive.
William Penner · · The 505 · Joined Sep 2006 · Points: 455
sandstonesloper wrote:We should strive for constructive solutions to controversial topics
I totally agree with Chris that these discussions could, and should, be productive. I think these forums would be a success even if they only show folks who came to climbing more recently that there are varied opinions and that no consensus endorsement or tolerance exists in New Mexico for rock modifications like chipping and gluing.

Local ethics should be borne out of dialog and mutual understanding. Following my own chain of logic, I guess that means a local ethic might include some forms of rock modification as an acceptable practice. Many have put Wyoming forth as an example of a place where comfortized holds are accepted, but full-scale chipping is not. Regulations on almost all public lands prohibit modifying the rock, however, so if we want to use these resources responsibly then we wouldn't chip and glue.

antagonist69 wrote:Well, yes and no hosebeats. Some of routes [at Dirt Wall, Big Block, and the Temple] were climable, some of them were too loose and dangerous. Some of the routes did get harder just like you said, and I don't know about that being such a good thing either. All of those routes at these crags were not climable though, that is not true. A few of the routes actually got easier. No, this topic is certinly not a black and white one, and the situation is not as clear as you state it to be. It's funny how one's perspective changes over time huh?
Big Block and the Temple did not need glue to be climbed; I remember years with plenty of bouldering before the Sika came. Holds sometimes broke a little with the annual freeze/thaw cycles, but that did not mean those areas needed the modifications they received. At the Dirt Wall if the routes were dirty, loose, and dangerous, walking away would also have been a reasonable option. There is no logic that mandates Dirt Wall had to be developed the way it was. According to Antogonist, some of the lines needed glue to be climbed, but they also did not have to become new routes.

The decision to glue the lines on Dirt Wall was one made mostly by Timy along with a limited number of others like Lorne Rainey who glued Bob Marley Meets Master Ganj if I remember correctly (lest someone recoil in horror that I outed another gluer, I believe Lorne no longer climbs and would not care if he is mentioned here [if he does I will gladly remove his name]). I don't imagine Timy asked the opinion of Socorro climbers or anyone else before he started the route development at the Dirt Wall (or the many other areas he modified). In the case of Big Block, I and other friends had climbed there long before the glue came and just because we or other climbers still might spend a nice summer evening bouldering there doesn't mean we are implicitly supporting the actions of Timy or others. More succinctly stated, the fact that lots of folks climb at Big Block doesn't mean they like glue or chipping.

dirtylaundry wrote:I think the ethics vary crag to crag, even within a state 'covered in glue'. You listed several good examples, modification is not accepted in the Sandias, by law or otherwise, and I haven't been to Roy, but obviously it is your crew's area so modifying it would be against the local ethics. On the dirt wall, the ethic is that it is ok to reinforce the rock. This ethic probably doesn't apply to other parts of even Socorro with more solid rock.


I really am trying to keep this conversation civil, but the above statement cracked me up since dirtylaundry is arguing that the Socorro ethic changes somehow as one walks up the hill to the Dirt Wall and suddenly becomes glue-friendly. I suggest we assign local ethics to certain holds even as well as walls or areas. That way once a hold is modified, the prevailing ethic for that specific hold allows for chipping or gluing ;)

None of my posts have been intended as rants or personal attacks on Timy. The tone of a forum post is almost impossible to read correctly and everyone projects their own feelings on to each other's words. I am glad folks can talk openly about this issue since it has hidden in the dark for a while and I do think we benefit from a periodic discussion. To echo some of George Perkins' earlier comments, most of us value climbing on National Forest and BLM lands and want to do everything we can to ensure we can continue to enjoy our public lands. All of the opinions expressed above are important to be heard and I hope this dialog leads to improved conditions or understandings rather than limited access.
sandstonesloper Carpenter · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2008 · Points: 25

One thing is for sure, we climbers are an autonomous group. I hope it stays that way forever.

How do address things like this?
dpmclimbing.com/climbing-vi…

I would hate to see this area closed!

William Penner · · The 505 · Joined Sep 2006 · Points: 455
sandstonesloper wrote:http://www.dpmclimbing.com/climbing-videos/watch/plan-b-new-mexican-mudstone I would hate to see this area closed!
That is fine looking.....stone.
dirtylaundry · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2011 · Points: 0

William,

I am the only dissenting voice so maybe you are correct that no one in the state supports the practices of chipping and gluing. Or, like me, maybe there are those that think it has a time and place but are reticent to put their name out on interweb for beratement.

It is interesting that you mention Bob Marley. That is my hardest redpoint so far. I did not see any glue, but had I, I don't think my experience redpointing it would have been tainted. I don't know much of the history of Socorro, and how the dirt wall came to be, but I do know I have more to do on the dirt wall at my grade that is well-protected than any other wall at Socorro, glue or no glue.

Paul Davidson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 607
sandstonesloper wrote:One thing is for sure...http://www.dpmclimbing.com/climbing-videos/watch/plan-b-new-mexican-mudstone
LMAO...
One other thing is for shure, a few ascents of that and it's gone.
The other thing is that Farmington sure puts out some oddball climbers. Larry Coats used to dry tool that kinda junk way back before the term existed. why ? you climb what u have, ey?
William Penner · · The 505 · Joined Sep 2006 · Points: 455
dirtylaundry wrote:William, I am the only dissenting voice so maybe you are correct that no one in the state supports the practices of chipping and gluing. Or, like me, maybe there are those that think it has a time and place but are reticent to put their name out on interweb for beratement.
dirtylaundry, I hope you don't think I am berating you. Some of my friends have glued or chipped in the past and we have managed to have some good times talking about it. I guess I just like climbing at areas where the rock is so good that glue is unnecessary.

William
dirtylaundry · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2011 · Points: 0

No, I don't think you are berating, just the general tone towards any discussion of modifying the rock on this forum and the Shelf road forum. Just trying to find a middle ground, but maybe I am the only one.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Arizona & New Mexico
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