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New campground at Shelf Road
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By BBJerry
May 15, 2013
First of all I'd like to say that all these assumptions about shelf life are ridiculous and unfounded. How about asking instead of making assumptions. It seems obvious that this area does need more camping. The idea wasn't to bring more people to the area with this project. It was OBVIOUSLY intended to accommodate the GROWING number of people getting into outdoor recreation in this country. The banks and sand gulch are FAILING and are also turning no profit for the BLM hence the increased fee. Basically our tax dollars are paying for this failed enterprise by the government. Any of you consider that? The good thing about a private campground is that it will be managed appropriately. Just the fact that someone will be living there improves the situation dramatically. Also these guys intended to teach people about sustainable practices in the wild. Staying on designated trails, camping where it's allowed, things like this will help to improve not only this area but everywhere these folks take their new knowledge. The problem with shelf road isn't the growing number of people, its the system. Improved trails would have been one of the main goals of shelf life and believe me they were doing a bunch of homework to tackle this issue. Every time we went down their our goal was to figure out way that this area could be improved for better sustainability. Also want to say that the comment about farming was pathetic. It doesn't take a crazy amount of water to farm with permaculture techniques. Educate yourself, not everything is run like commercial ag. AND everyone is bitching about how this area is already over run, and there's all this talk about working with the BLM and donating to the access fund. STUPID STUPID STUPID. The government is one of the reasons this place is being destroyed. The biggest problem this area faces, period, is overgrazing by the cattle. This is a profit for the BLM, so all you sustainable do goods out there criticizing this project should do something about that. Arrogance and ignorance run hand in hand and I've seen both demonstrated with many of the responses to this project. And I wrote this in a few minutes on an iPhone. Givin the time and a computer I would have dispelled every stupid fucking thing I read from the thread. Assumptions make an ass out of YOU only

FLAG
By Ian Stewart
May 15, 2013
Shelf Life Campground wrote:
Unfortunately we ran into unforeseen complications which are preventing us from pursuing this dream.


What were the "unforeseen complications"?

Kaleb Brown wrote:
Try actually making a difference and then see how you feel about it. You guys sure talk a big game. Let see anyone actually try and back it up and do something.


I commend you for trying to make a difference, but your plan failed. Don't blame others for pointing out the oversights to your plan, as you've already admitted that at least one of them brought the whole project to a halt (perhaps not one mentioned here, but an oversight nonetheless). I don't think anybody said "I could do better". I don't need to be able to bake a pie to know when I've eaten a shitty pie.

Kaleb Brown wrote:
You tell me a better way to get money for a venture like this for two people out of college with massive student loan debt. I'd love to hear it.


There isn't one, because the whole project was a financial black hole from the beginning. No bank would have given you money, for good reason. The economics were far from "sustainable".

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By grampa potate
May 15, 2013
The dream is dead???
NO!!
Shelflife had no shelf life.

FLAG
By slim
Administrator
May 15, 2013
tomato, tomotto, kill mike amato.
i don't see how the current bank and sand gulch campgrounds are a failure. i would actually say they have been quite successful. it has just gotten to a point, due to a large increase in the number of various groups visiting shelf, that the current demand for camping is exceeding the supply. is this the BLM's fault? sure, there are ignorant users on occasion who feel the need to bust up a tree for firewood. again, is this the BLM's fault?

as most have stated, you have good intentions. however, it takes a lot of time, effort, and evaluating other's criticisms to really put together a good plan. you shouldn't feel offended by criticism - it provides a lot of opportunity to avoid pitfalls and refine a plan.

FLAG
By Kenan
May 15, 2013
Shelf Rd
Kaleb Brown wrote:
Hello, I just wanted to inform everyone that you have all gotten your wish and the project will not be moving forward from this point on. Sorry we're not sorry for trying. I challenge any one of you to try and do something for the better. It is very easy to throw stones behind a computer screen. Try actually making a difference and then see how you feel about it. You guys sure talk a big game. Let see anyone actually try and back it up and do something. Thanks for making us feel like terrible people for trying to do something for the common good of everyone that uses the area. Show me a better plan to improve the situation or make a difference. At least we tried to take initiative. And not everyone is out to screw people over. Do you really think that was our intention?! It's called crowd-funding because it takes a "crowd" and many people to make it happen and we thought that enough people would support the idea but I guess we miss-read the situation. You tell me a better way to get money for a venture like this for two people out of college with massive student loan debt. I'd love to hear it. Maybe it's not all bad tho camping in a parking lot or anywhere else you can find. Sounds fun I hope you all enjoy it. OH and Just an FYI the video was taken while we were walking the land with the realtor. Try asking a couple questions next time before jumping to conclusions. Have a great day! "It must be remembered that there is nothing more difficult to plan, more doubtful of success, nor more dangerous to manage than the creation of a new system. For the initiator has the enmity of all who would profit by the preservation of the old institutions and merely lukewarm defenders of those who would gain by the new ones" - Niccolo Machiavelli (1469 - 1527)


BBJerry wrote:
First of all I'd like to say that all these assumptions about shelf life are ridiculous and unfounded. How about asking instead of making assumptions. It seems obvious that this area does need more camping. The idea wasn't to bring more people to the area with this project. It was OBVIOUSLY intended to accommodate the GROWING number of people getting into outdoor recreation in this country. The banks and sand gulch are FAILING and are also turning no profit for the BLM hence the increased fee. Basically our tax dollars are paying for this failed enterprise by the government. Any of you consider that? The good thing about a private campground is that it will be managed appropriately. Just the fact that someone will be living there improves the situation dramatically. Also these guys intended to teach people about sustainable practices in the wild. Staying on designated trails, camping where it's allowed, things like this will help to improve not only this area but everywhere these folks take their new knowledge. The problem with shelf road isn't the growing number of people, its the system. Improved trails would have been one of the main goals of shelf life and believe me they were doing a bunch of homework to tackle this issue. Every time we went down their our goal was to figure out way that this area could be improved for better sustainability. Also want to say that the comment about farming was pathetic. It doesn't take a crazy amount of water to farm with permaculture techniques. Educate yourself, not everything is run like commercial ag. AND everyone is bitching about how this area is already over run, and there's all this talk about working with the BLM and donating to the access fund. STUPID STUPID STUPID. The government is one of the reasons this place is being destroyed. The biggest problem this area faces, period, is overgrazing by the cattle. This is a profit for the BLM, so all you sustainable do goods out there criticizing this project should do something about that. Arrogance and ignorance run hand in hand and I've seen both demonstrated with many of the responses to this project. And I wrote this in a few minutes on an iPhone. Givin the time and a computer I would have dispelled every stupid fucking thing I read from the thread. Assumptions make an ass out of YOU only



Bummer, hate to see you guys stooping to name calling and attacking the critics of your idea. The angst certainly doesn't support your cause or paint you in a better light. As potential proprietors of a commercial endeavor, it will usually behoove you to rise above and show some humility. I re-read through the entire thread and most of the responses were sincere and justified criticism of a project that clearly failed to take some key factors into account. Sure, there are always a couple of jerks that jump to conclusions and go way overboard. But...umm...this is an Internet forum.

YOU ARE PUBLICLY ASKING PEOPLE FOR MONEY. Be prepared for criticism. It wasn't the initiative that was being criticized. It was the plan and the 'pitch'. It's natural that people who care about the area and are affected by such plans will speak their minds.

You'll need a thick skin and patience to make multi-hundred-thousand-dollar business endeavors succeed. Maybe you could heed some of the advice and alter your plan to seek out a lower plot of land, minimize amenities, etc. It seems hasty to fly off the handle and walk away after people have already donated money, unless, as another poster implied, there wasn't much commitment to begin with.

FLAG
By Ian Stewart
May 15, 2013
Kaleb Brown wrote:
So we have the numbers and information to back up our this business venture. We are tentative however to disclose this information because we think it is a great idea with an even bigger potential payoff in the future. We currently do not have the property so to protect ourselves from someone that might swoop in and snag it out from under us and do the same thing we are trying to do is the reason we have not published our entire business plan.


Now that you've abandoned the project, there's no reason you shouldn't disclose all of this information. If anything, it will only help other people to pick up where you've left off, fix the mistakes that were made, and make a similar project successful. If "making a difference" and protecting the environment were your #1 concerns, I imagine you'd want to see changes made regardless of you're the ones to make them.

FLAG
By Ian Stewart
May 15, 2013
I just got this lovely PM from BBJerry:

Subject: Two faced piece of shit
Message: You should just admit you want to see their plan so that you can try and pick it apart. Respond to my post which made perfect sense as far as their goals and my opinion of the douche bag assumptions made by you and a couple others.

FLAG
By BBJerry
May 15, 2013
And I have received no response from Ian Stewart.

FLAG
 
By BBJerry
May 15, 2013
And just to let everyone know, I am not one of the founders of this project and I wouldn't have benefited financially at all from the success of this project(doubtful anyone would have personally benefited financially from this project but that is one of the grand assumptions made by many). I hadn't known these gentleman before this project began either. I was presented with their idea by my cousin and wanted to meet them to help. I have worked in the ski industry, I've been a river guide, a farmer, and worked as a wildland fire fighter. I have a keen understanding for what is sustainable and what is GOOD for the environment. These guys were open to any ideas and wanted people to constructively build this project with them. Being met with rude assumptions and zero constructive criticism wasn't exactly what they expected from the climbing community. Pretty disappointed currently

FLAG
By PMO
May 15, 2013
First, I'm very disappointed that you've chosen to attack people that have raised valid issues regarding the feasibility of this project at your targeted site. If you stopped viewing every person's feedback as a personal attack, you may recognize that you've been given a lot of free advice that will be relevant to any future projects.

As far as the issue of trespassing, you may have been with a Realtor (although the owner of that property questions that, as you approached him DIRECTLY, not through a Realtor), but we recognized one clip from your video (not accessible from the easement/road) as one of our favorite locations, and no one sought our permission to walk that property. However, that is a minor item. We viewed that as disrespectful.

The point is that had you approached or contacted all of the current owners (which would have been an indication that you intended to respect both the property and the other owners), you would have learned about the history of this area, accessibility, road maintenance issues, tax ramifications and our experiences with BLM. All of these issues should have been considered before selecting this site.

As far as your response regarding the "farming", that young woman is working on her PhD ON THESE ISSUES, and has been to 3rd World countries and villages helping to identify the available resources, and recommend and implement TRUE sustainable plans. So, my money is on her evaluation.

As you say, you are young, just out of college and have school debts. Both my husband and I put each other through college and have engineering degrees. We did not receive any grant money or gov't backed loans. We worked long hours, and raised our family, all while being saddled with more debt than you can imagine.

It took YEARS before we were able to consider purchasing ANYTHING that could be considered "recreational". All we asked is that you respect our rights and our privacy. Instead, you have chosen to be snotty and snide when I have tried to raise reasonable, valid issues regarding your plans.

In reading some of the feedback you've received on this site, it is obvious that you're receiving some relevant ideas/points (FREE of charge) from educated, successful individuals. Take that advice and incorporate it if and when you try such an endeavor in the future.

There's nothing wrong with having big dreams. You just need to be realistic.

FLAG
By Cor
May 15, 2013
black nasty
Sitting watching this thread is way better than sitting around watching a soap on tv!

More crying men here than the days of our lives! ;D

It does help break up the work day!

FLAG
By Ian Stewart
May 15, 2013
BBJerry wrote:
And I have received no response from Ian Stewart.


That's how I deal with trolls.

FLAG
By TKeagle
From Eagle, CO
May 15, 2013
Ian,

I was also sent a PM entitled 'Douchebag' from our friendly troll bbjerry. Terrible trails - that is a new selling point?

Administrator, perhaps its time to pull the plug on this whole Shelf Life "message of sustainability".

Here's his glorious rant - enjoy:

Can't believe your over all assumptions with this shelf life project. I will post a reply on the thread but wanted to email you directly because your an ass. Grand assumptions you made that really fucked with people image of this project. Road feasibility, first of all was considered, obviously. And the project coordinators were in constant contact with the local government to figure this out. The idea that building a sustainable campground is some how unsustainable just because its new is ridiculous. What's unsustainable is all the new traffic at the area with no new plans for where these folks are going to camp. The project was t to bring more people to this area dumb ass. It was to a comparator the ALREADY increasing numbers of people flocking to this area. Outdoor rec is growing and new ways of campground design must be established. The other reason their idea was amazing is because this area is being destroyed by the people already visiting this area with terrible trails in place. Their idea was to integrate a trail building initiative with this. To use their own resources and profit from the grounds to improve the terrible trails systems. Your assumptions make an ass out of you

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By Climbingmama
From Colorado
May 15, 2013
Donít worry Ian and captchaos- youíre not alone! I too was contacted by BBJerry and was called a fucking fool, douche bag, arrogant, was told that I need to educate myself before spewing, and that my arrogance warranted a verbal attack. Let's hope he doesn't act this way to everyone who disagrees with him.

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By Stich
From Colorado Springs, Colorado
May 15, 2013
Coffee after freezing our asses off near James Pea...
captchaos wrote:
...Administrator, perhaps its time to pull the plug on this whole Shelf Life "message of sustainability"...



No way. This is gold, Jerry.

FLAG
By mike h
From Denver, CO
May 15, 2013
vv, laos
Hudson DeWeese wrote:
Hi there! I am the other co-founder of the Shelf Life campground. ..... Please, if there any other details or concerns any of you may have let us know and we will address them. Our video will be released on May 1st and we will be excited to receive some feedback!


If you don't want an answer, don't ask.

FLAG
 
By grampa potate
May 15, 2013
Bbjerry tell us who you are. I think you are one of the founders.

FLAG
By Hudson DeWeese
May 15, 2013
?
Everyone,

I love Colorado. I love rock climbing. To me, the sport has changed my life and has taught me so much about myself. All I wanted was to share this experience with others because I believe sustainability involves finding a connection with the outdoors. We just wanted to facilitate an opportunity to get others outdoors to enjoy the same experience rock climbing gave me. I honestly donít even know who BBjerry is, but apparently he has been following this project pretty closely. Some kind of development will happen at shelf be it private or public. We all love climbing, so letís just end this thread on knowing that we have some common ground. I would be in full support of this thread being canceled seeing how the project has stopped. I have taken in a lot of the advice posted on this thread and I hope to implement it in future endeavors. Cheers.

FLAG
By Greg Kimble
From Colorado
May 16, 2013
Jerry just hates camping at the bank THAT much.

Seriously though, will you guys tell us what the nail in the coffin was? What was the obstacle that killed the project?

FLAG
By Robbie Mackley
From Tucson, AZ
May 16, 2013
Me and Holden at the "Matterhorn"
^more traffic to an over uesd area. Why don't we just add some more campgrounds at J-Tree while we're at it. Sheesh, some people's kids.

FLAG


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