Login with Facebook
 ADVANCED
New (big!) gym opening in Golden - Earthtreks
View Latest Posts in This Forum or All Forums
   Page 9 of 13.  <<First   <Prev   7  8  9  10  11   Next>   Last>>
Follow replies to this topic? Notify me at the top of web site.
1

Email me.
 
 
By Monty
From Golden, CO
Mar 5, 2014
Just a teaser
JCM wrote:
I honestly think the opposite is true. With the absurdly low first bolt clipped, it is really hard for the belayer to jump to give an adequately soft catch, without (the belayer) getting slammed into the wall or that first draw.


I've had several lighter belayers ask me to skip the first clip just so they don't get slammed into the wall...

FLAG
By JCM
From Seattle, WA
Mar 5, 2014
Monty wrote:
I've had several lighter belayers ask me to skip the first clip just so they don't get slammed into the wall...


I routinely ask this of people I climb with at that gym...even when they are the same weight as me. I also make sure to do this for my belayers. A friend of mine (heavier than me) hurt her toe at ET from getting slammed into the wall when I fell, with the first bolt clipped. I had clipped the first bolt because this was shortly after getting "the talk" from a gym employee for skipping the first on a different route. After that incident, I firmly decided to ignore gym policy and do what actually makes sense.

The habit I've gotten into there, for routes with a difficult start, is to do a bit of a gym "stick clip" by rambling up the adjacent 5.9 jug haul to clip the second bolt, lowering back down, and then starting my route. This keeps the belayer happy, and prevents a jarring first-bolt fall or a difficult clip of the second bolt. Someone else already mentioned this practice upthread.

FLAG
By jay brereton
Mar 5, 2014
I've also gotten "the talk" from staff about skipping the first clip. When I pointed out that I felt it was actually safer to not expose my belayer to slamming into the wall the staff stated it(clipping all the draws) was "required by insurance." This seems a little absurd since i've never heard it voiced in any other gym. Secondly as another poster pointed out the bouldering wall/cave is really high and presents a much greater chance for injury IMO.

3 obvious choices-
-give staff some discretion...is the climber climbing safely or not?
-remove first clips
-raise first clips 2-3 feet(I understand this would require moving all the draws...but i'm OK with that!)

FLAG
By Kai Huang
From Thornton, CO
Mar 5, 2014
JCM wrote:
I honestly think the opposite is true. With the absurdly low first bolt clipped, it is really hard for the belayer to jump to give an adequately soft catch, without (the belayer) getting slammed into the wall or that first draw. Skipping the first gives the belayer a lot more room to move, and to jump when the leader falls, and just makes for a better belay. The belayer can give a soft catch, without the danger of getting yanked into the bottom of the wall. Secondly, I don't think that clipping the first bolt is a good idea for protecting a fall before the second bolt. Any fall at that height, with so little rope out, is going to be really jarring, and you'll probably wrecking-ball into your belayer. From that height, with a soft pad beneath, I'd much rather just land on the ground. Also, as you said, skipping a clip high on a route is safer than blowing it.



Small guy here, and I agree with what you say. I rather jump off, like bouldering, if I was to blow the 1st and 2nd clip, or I would rather stick clip/climb anything up to get 2nd draw clipped. I ask the same thing for my climbing partner since pretty much all of them are bigger than me. Stick clip or jump off if you think you will blow the first/2nd clip instead of landing and kicking me.

FLAG
By Monty
From Golden, CO
Mar 5, 2014
Just a teaser
jay brereton wrote:
-raise first clips 2-3 feet(I understand this would require moving all the draws...but i'm OK with that!)


Hehe, that's the level of the second clip anyway ;)

FLAG
By Abram Herman
From Golden, CO
Mar 5, 2014
Viking helmet cover, yep.
Since ET staff have been watching and weighing in on this thread, let me just add a +1 for the ridiculousness of the first clips. I never clip the first one, it makes no sense. I haven't been lectured about it, though, but if I was I think I'd have a hard time keeping a straight face.

They're of course free to set these arbitrary rules, but they have to realize that too much of this stuff will start driving people away. I know plenty of friends in Boulder who won't climb at Movement because of some attitudes on the staff; let's hope ET doesn't end up like that.

FLAG
By Travis24
Mar 5, 2014
lobbing in Independence Pass
I also feel sorry for the ET employees that have to enforce this rule. From what I can sum up from other’s posts and my own humble opinion, the list of reasons for a climber to not clip that 1st draw is pretty reasonable.

A person is allowed to boulder up to the 2nd clip on the lead walls but not allowed to lead climb up to the 2nd clip? By that logic alone, skipping the 1st clip should be allowed.

Clipping the 2nd bolt is safer for the belayer; he or she won’t get slammed into wall/1st draw if the climber falls. Also the belayer can move around more, such as being able to see their climber on the head wall above the top of the cave, without the risk of being jerked back into the wall at a bad angle if the leader falls.

Clipping the 2nd bolt is safer for the climber as falling to the ground from the 1st clip seems better and safer than getting jerked into the wall at the first clip. Clipping that 1st bolt and falling often results in a climber/belayer “asshat”. Also the climber can receive a better soft catch and not get slammed into the wall if the climber falls further up the route. Personally, I need a soft catch, not a wrecking-ball catch.

No one has mentioned that clipping the 2nd bolt can be safer for gear (rope and draws) as clipping the 2nd draw is much more conducive to giving a soft catch. A soft catch runs the rope through the draw smoothly instead of jerking the rope and climber to an abrupt stop. Soft catches are good for the wear and tear of the gear.

ET seems pretty responsive to its members concerns and input, so hopefully they will let people make their own decisions about clipping the 1st draw and not just blindly ask everyone to practice something some of us consider less than safe.

FLAG
By jleining
Mar 5, 2014
Just thought I would add this, not sure if it has been mentioned or not yet. I previously worked at a gym and IMHO skipping the first draw makes sense. Although, one time, a man was climbing with his significant other who was half his size, he fell from 3/4 up the wall and would have hit the ground except for the fact that he clipped the first draw which stopped the belayer. Granted at this point his fall was being arrested and he would not have decked with full force the potential for injury was high.
Remember it is the belayers responsibility to keep the climber off the deck and in this rare scenario clipping the first bolt could help.

FLAG
 
By Tzilla Rapdrilla
Mar 5, 2014
It seems that ET is having a bit of an adjustment period getting used to a much different clientele in Denver vs. their other gyms. I suspect that dealing with much more experienced and finicky climbers in Denver is different for them compared to a high noob percentage back east. That said, they do have to manage their risk & deal with uninformed insurers and that may lead to some rules that seem to be nonsense. It may be a harsh contrast to Movement where half the climbers belay with no brake hand & the other hand holding the Gri Gri cam firmly locked open.

I think it would be an easy ET improvement to add cards for customers to rate the routes as no one is going to drag their phone around in there and the ratings would likely be much more accurate. Routesetting would be improved from a less bouldering approach, smoother movement & routes set better for people of different heights (more footholds).

FLAG
By Kai Huang
From Thornton, CO
Mar 5, 2014
jleining wrote:
Just thought I would add this, not sure if it has been mentioned or not yet. I previously worked at a gym and IMHO skipping the first draw makes sense. Although, one time, a man was climbing with his significant other who was half his size, he fell from 3/4 up the wall and would have hit the ground except for the fact that he clipped the first draw which stopped the belayer. Granted at this point his fall was being arrested and he would not have decked with full force the potential for injury was high. Remember it is the belayers responsibility to keep the climber off the deck and in this rare scenario clipping the first bolt could help.



If assuming no bolts were skipped, climber fell from 3/4 way up the wall, belayer was stopped by the first clip, and climber almost decked, the belayer obviously had too much slack out or unable to stop the fall until the last minute.

FLAG
By Abram Herman
From Golden, CO
Mar 5, 2014
Viking helmet cover, yep.
Tzilla Rapdrilla wrote:
I think it would be an easy ET improvement to add cards for customers to rate the routes as no one is going to drag their phone around in there and the ratings would likely be much more accurate. Routesetting would be improved from a less bouldering approach, smoother movement & routes set better for people of different heights (more footholds).



YES! I really love the routesetting, but I and most of my climbing friends feel that the grades can vary very wildly. But it's not getting fixed because no one (myself included, and I'm very tech-savvy) wants ANOTHER site to sign up for and deal with, when they could do the same thing with a piece of paper and a pen at the base of each route.

FLAG
By Bill Wa
Mar 6, 2014
Ok all joking aside, how do we get to check out the gym for cheap? Are there any loopholes, off hours, specials, promos, etc. etc.? Seriously, $40 for a day? Give me a break! Membership is out of the question since the weather is warming up and between climbing ice and rock outside we rarely have time for a gym session. Maybe make an exception for two very special persons?
Well, the reason we are special is that we are the living advertisement to the gym. We have traveled from far places and going to places ever farther to spread the good word about not only the outstanding quality of the gym, but also the professionalism, the experience and the friendliness of ET's guiding services. Our future guiding company has it's roots inspired by Earth Trecks and the tales that were told about them have no comparison to any other wilderness guide or an outfitter. To say all those good things we would be in the wrong if we NEVER climbed at Earth Trecks Golden, their newest and arguably the best addition. You will be the judge. Community, do we deserve a free pass? Mind you, be gentle with your words. And as always, stay classy MP.

FLAG
By Mark E Dixon
From Sprezzatura, Someday
Mar 6, 2014
At the BRC
Bill Wa wrote:
Maybe make an exception for two very special persons?


Just out of curiousity, what makes the two of you so special?

FLAG
By Tom-onator
From This Galaxy
Mar 6, 2014
Tom-onator
^^^Well, the reason we are special is that we are the living advertisement to the gym. We have traveled from far places and going to places ever farther to spread the good word about not only the outstanding quality of the gym, but also the professionalism, the experience and the friendliness of ET's guiding services.

Proof that all is well in trollville

FLAG
By TBrumme
From denver, co
Mar 6, 2014
Bill Wa wrote:
Our future guiding company has it's roots inspired by Earth Trecks and the tales that were told about them have no comparison to any other wilderness guide or an outfitter.


This coming from someone that is trying to start a guiding business without any certifications or training...

FLAG
By JenH
From Denver, CO
Mar 6, 2014
RRG
The first bolt is too low. I have personally lost skin due to the rough walls when I reflexively jumped for my lighter climber. +1 for climbing up and pre clipping the second bolt.

I also don't care to give up my car keys to get a lead rope.

FLAG
 
By Abram Herman
From Golden, CO
Mar 6, 2014
Viking helmet cover, yep.
JenH wrote:
I also don't care to give up my car keys to get a lead rope.


I agree—I complained about it on their FB page, though, and they said you can give them pretty much anything. So now I just give them a little masterlock key on a ring. It's annoying, but whatever.

FLAG
By Kai Huang
From Thornton, CO
Mar 6, 2014
Earth Treks Facebook wrote:
Beyond inspections performed by Earth Treks staff, we also find the feedback of climbers in the gym to be invaluable. If at any time should you see a situation or piece of equipment that causes concern (whether it be a loose hold, abraded rope or draw, or poor belay technique), we strongly encourage you to bring those concerns to an Earth Treks staff member. We all know climbing is inherently dangerous, and collectively benefit when safety becomes a team effort.



Sigh... For a gym that claims feedback of climbers in the gym to be invaluable, I am very disappointed to see them going around purposely just to crack down on the must clip the first draw policy. It's just not something I would expect after people stated their reasons and concerns. I understand there are rules and policies, but I also know what I need to do to be safer and better for me and my partner in various scenarios. Perhaps the recent incident of a draw breaking made everyone all paranoid about it. Still, I would like to hear good reasons why clipping first draw in the gym is a must besides it's our policy.

FLAG
By John Wilder
From Las Vegas, NV
Mar 6, 2014
Kai Huang wrote:
Sigh... For a gym that claims feedback of climbers in the gym to be invaluable, I am very disappointed to see them going around purposely just to crack down on the must clip the first draw policy. It's just not something I would expect after people stated their reasons and concerns. I understand there are rules and policies, but I also know what I need to do to be safer and better for me and my partner in various scenarios. Perhaps the recent incident of a draw breaking made everyone all paranoid about it. Still, I would like to hear good reasons why clipping first draw in the gym is a must besides it's our policy.


Its probably written into their insurance policy (most likely carried over from their East Coast facilities), in other words, non-negotiable.

As to those who skip clips higher up on routes- that's foolish and Earth Treks is rightfully reprimanding you for it. No gym is tall enough to safely skip clips.

FLAG
By reboot
From Westminster, CO
Mar 7, 2014
John Wilder wrote:
As to those who skip clips higher up on routes- that's foolish and Earth Treks is rightfully reprimanding you for it. No gym is tall enough to safely skip clips.


Those Petzl draws are 13" tip to tip; it's literally 3.5' of bolt spacing. There's almost no flow to the climbing when every other move you need to stop & clip. It can easily be lead safely w/ half the bolts.

No skin off my back since I don't go there, but plenty are eying for the Movement Denver opening day.

FLAG
By Dustin Anderson
Mar 7, 2014
John Wilder wrote:
Its probably written into their insurance policy (most likely carried over from their East Coast facilities), in other words, non-negotiable. As to those who skip clips higher up on routes- that's foolish and Earth Treks is rightfully reprimanding you for it. No gym is tall enough to safely skip clips.



Don't know if you have climbed at this particular gym but, they decided to put a draw about every 3', its way too close and the route setting in my opinion is pretty poor. It causes many of the clips to be super awkward. Many of the clipping stances require you to basically lock off with no opposing foot, so many of them seem like you are not even supposed to clip them. I pretty much have taken to adding feet as this style of setting has inflamed my elbows and really, I'm sick of being injured climbing at this gym. If the setting would improve they could mitigate the problem of skipping clips. Also, the first clip is literally 7' off the ground, the second clip is <10, I don't clip the first because I fall . . . a lot.

FLAG
By Travis24
Mar 7, 2014
lobbing in Independence Pass
Dustin, check this link out. Sharma doesn't get yelled at for skipping the first clip. And I've heard he falls a lot too! I've seen him fall on one of them climbing videos!

facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=48...

FLAG
By Mark E Dixon
From Sprezzatura, Someday
Mar 7, 2014
At the BRC
John Wilder wrote:
As to those who skip clips higher up on routes- that's foolish and Earth Treks is rightfully reprimanding you for it. No gym is tall enough to safely skip clips.


As someone who occasionally skips clips I'll have to respectfully disagree.

FLAG
By JenH
From Denver, CO
Mar 7, 2014
RRG
Walls are rough, I've watched them Lysol the blood my roommate left on the wall. Patch of skin 4x5" bloody and abrated.

FLAG
 
By Doug Shepherd
Mar 7, 2014
I've been generally psyched on the gym, but last night I watched a bunch of employees incorrectly argue with a climber using a Gri-Gri 1 about what the proper way to use it was, even to the point of the climber actually having the Petzl printout of approved methods in his pocket because he was obviously tired of being harassed.

Meanwhile, I watched three other people consistently take their brake hand off the rope while lead belaying with a Gri-Gri 2 during the course of their argument. What is more dangerous there?

My friends and I have started talking to people about correct belay technique because the staff seems focused on cracking the whip on a subset of the climbers rather than enforcing the rules across the board.

Instead of harassing people about what technique is appropriate for a Gri-Gri 1 versus a Gri-Gri 2 and skipping the first clip (which is ridiculous, I can almost reach many of the first clips from the ground) the staff may want to focus on improving the mass of belay errors and better route setting to solve the clipping issues.

FLAG


Follow replies to this topic? Notify me at the top of web site.
1

Email me.
Page 9 of 13.  <<First   <Prev   7  8  9  10  11   Next>   Last>>