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Jul 18, 2012
What would you compare the smallest BD xC4 (red) to? It looks bigger than the 00 mastercam. Steve86
Joined Jul 17, 2011
10 points
Jul 18, 2012
Eric and Lucie wrote:
But Aric, what if the axle is built like this (inner lobes riding on a larger diameter). Same (small) gain in camming range due to eccentric design, but easy to assemble, no? Now, if the smaller BD units are built using a conventional single axle without eccentricity, then they are simply a nicely built Alien.



Well Shit, Eric and Lucie, looks like I owe you a beer. From the video it look like you're 100% correct in your guess at what they did, and dear lord... Expensive???? Pfft. Nothing expensive about doing something like that on an lathe. Lots of marketing blather, and looks a lot like they're trying to weasel their way around the earlier Christianson patent much like they did with Jardine's.

Still think that's a less-than optimal approach, and was planning on looking into it tonight while working on other cam stuff (running costing on making a 9" cam for folks on another thread). Will report back on this.

Jeez... Expensive my ass.... You just bore the jaws on the lathe off-center, the same as eccentrics have been turned for hundreds of years. WTF. Adds maybe 2 ops, and with modern CNC with live tooling those additional ops could likely be avoided completely.

(many EDITS withdrawn)

FINAL EDIT: Sorry, got overexcited upon discovering BD was pitching a design I abandoned almost a decade ago, and had a half dozen edits here regarding facepalms, manufacturing expenses, diagrams from the provisional patent I filed in 2008, etc. Very relieved to find that BD is a decade behind where I am, and that the confidentiality agreements I got signed were abided by. Long story short: if you can get your head around the math there's a whole lot more expansion ratio available if you take BD's idea to its bitter end. IIRC the samples I sent to Trango got at least 1.75:1 with a 14 degree cam angle in those sizes, with expansion ratio increasing with size. Took over an hour to convince Trango's engineer the math was correct, as it's quite unintuitive. Fun stuff though, but ultimately what lead me to come around to Metolious' way of thinking that more pieces with more overlap and better optimized head width is a better solution.
Aric Datesman
Joined Sep 16, 2008
145 points
Jul 18, 2012
wham bam hand jam. Wrapping up the final moves of ...
Steve86 wrote:
What would you compare the smallest BD xC4 (red) to? It looks bigger than the 00 mastercam.

perhaps the red and yellows follow similar sizing as the old 0.1 and 0.2 microcamalots?
Darren Mabe
From Flagstaff, AZ
Joined Dec 12, 2002
3,752 points
Jul 18, 2012
A .1mm increase in range (20% !!!) hardly seems worth it for the expense and extra stress points. If the range is even that. WTB stats on these things... is there a reason they are holding out? Pete Spri
Joined Jun 1, 2009
138 points
Jul 18, 2012
Spri wrote:
WTB stats on these things... is there a reason they are holding out?


Building up marketing hype pre-launch?

But feel free to discount that opinion, as I'm clearly biased. (half joking)
Aric Datesman
Joined Sep 16, 2008
145 points
Jul 19, 2012
Scouting


if this is what the axle looks like then that design itself is inherently what is preventing them from going smaller with the cam lobes. no?
Rude Boy
From San Francisco, CA
Joined Apr 29, 2012
575 points
Jul 19, 2012
It looks like they use a similar sling to the C4's... I'm assuming BD rigorously tested the thumb loop for deforming after falls.

I love my master cams and metolius TCU's (I bought them at a time when aliens were unavailable) and my only gripe is how they deform, kink, and bend after you whip on them. But for the time being I'll stick to the metolius for finger stuff as I'm so bloody familiar with the sizes/colors. Go yellow & blue!
generationfourth
From Irvine, CA
Joined Mar 2, 2008
16 points
Jul 19, 2012
Bucky
generationfourth wrote:
... But for the time being I'll stick to the metolius for finger stuff as I'm so bloody familiar with the sizes/colors. Go yellow & blue!


No sh*t...the yellow TCU and the pink tricam are the money pieces!!!
J. Albers
From Colorado
Joined Jul 11, 2008
2,223 points
Jul 20, 2012
ukclimbing.com/gear/news.php?i...

X4 video.
nateclimb
Joined Sep 11, 2008
5 points
Jul 20, 2012
nateclimb wrote:


After viewing that page, I remembered why I hope to never attend another trade show.

Ugh, the horrible memories..
SilverSnurfer
Joined May 11, 2012
5 points
Jul 23, 2012
mattm wrote:
Curious if it has to do with how they align the axels (the axels are not in-line but rather offset from one another or "Stacked" on top) or if they terminate them at different lengths (inner lobe axel is shorter than outer lobe axel). Agreed in the picture it's hard to tell if there are two axels or not... Looking at the picture again it LOOKS like it could be axels of two different lengths with the inner peened end located INSIDE the outer lobes. That's kinda cool and certainly would make even the larger sizes nifty.


This might have some answers:

assets.messe-fn.de/od-wAssets/...
David.Jones
Joined May 29, 2009
1 points
Jul 23, 2012
(Pic David.Jones linked to:)

My god... David.Jones, I hadn't even hoped for getting a pic like that! Thanks!!!!

Looks like the springs bear on a groove in the axle, just like Aliens. And are similar to the springs Totem is trying to get to work for the really small ones. And the trigger beads are cosmetic and simply ride around a Alien-style nylon sheath. So many answers in that pic...
Aric Datesman
Joined Sep 16, 2008
145 points
Jul 23, 2012
The beads are more than cosmetic -- they protect the nylon sheath. Interesting that the strength is 6kn (assuming that the parts picture is accurate). Steve86
Joined Jul 17, 2011
10 points
Jul 23, 2012
By cosmetic I mean they could be omitted with no effect to the trigger mechanism. Aric Datesman
Joined Sep 16, 2008
145 points
Jul 26, 2012
Stan Pitcher
From SLC, UT
Joined Oct 16, 2002
410 points
Administrator
Jul 26, 2012
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after...
I still don't get it. Why not go with offsets or something they basically don't already cover with solid products? Just seems gimicky and competing with Aliens and Masters for the sake of competing. Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Joined Jul 30, 2011
1,004 points
Jul 26, 2012
Thanks Hank Caylor!
Still not saying what range they will cover. Did I overlook that info somewhere?

And from the newest vid, it seems that there are no grooves on the lobes of the lower three sizes. They all seem to have smooth lobes.
Bang
From Charlottesville, VA
Joined Dec 12, 2010
43 points
Administrator
Jul 26, 2012
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after...
Idk man, I'm assuming, and perhaps incorrectly, that the colors coincide pretty closely to the C4s and C3s on the low end. That's the way it looks anyways. Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Joined Jul 30, 2011
1,004 points
Jul 26, 2012
Thanks Hank Caylor!
And why they have two blue colored sizes instead of a black or white color for one of them? Bang
From Charlottesville, VA
Joined Dec 12, 2010
43 points
Jul 26, 2012
Jake Jones wrote:
I still don't get it. Why not go with offsets or something they basically don't already cover with solid products? Just seems gimicky and competing with Aliens and Masters for the sake of competing.


I think when you're the 800 pound gorilla in the room you're allowed to do things like that.
Aric Datesman
Joined Sep 16, 2008
145 points
Jul 26, 2012
Bang wrote:
And why they have two blue colored sizes instead of a black or white color for one of them?


That's actually purple, not another blue.

The colours for BD's cams go in this order:

red --> yellow --> blue --> gray --> purple --> green --> red --> yellow --> blue --> gray --> purple --> green --> red --> yellow --> blue --> gray --> purple --> green --> red --> yellow --> blue --> gray --> purple --> green --> red --> yellow
--> blue --> gray --> purple --> green --> red --> yellow --> blue --> gray....
Khoi
From Vancouver, BC
Joined Oct 12, 2009
13 points
Jul 26, 2012
Thanks Hank Caylor!
Khoi wrote:
That's actually purple, not another blue. The colours for BD's cams go in this order: red --> yellow --> blue --> gray --> purple --> green --> red --> yellow --> blue --> gray --> purple --> green --> red --> yellow --> blue --> gray --> purple --> green --> red --> yellow --> blue --> gray --> purple --> green --> red --> yellow --> blue --> gray --> purple --> green --> red --> yellow --> blue --> gray....


Thanks for clarifying, Khoi!
Bang
From Charlottesville, VA
Joined Dec 12, 2010
43 points
Administrator
Jul 26, 2012
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after...
Aric Datesman wrote:
I think when you're the 800 pound gorilla in the room you're allowed to do things like that.



Haha. Yes. Very valid point.
Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Joined Jul 30, 2011
1,004 points
Jul 26, 2012
me on my redpoint
They look amazing, I know Ill get some when them come out that is for sure Dave Cummings
From Grand Junction, CO
Joined Jul 3, 2007
213 points
Jul 27, 2012
Middle
Jake Jones wrote:
I still don't get it. Why not go with offsets or something they basically don't already cover with solid products? Just seems gimicky and competing with Aliens and Masters for the sake of competing.


Indeed, what are they thinking going to market with a product that is in the same category as their competitors. The nerve of BD, it's like they're trying to sell a product to their customers or something.
Ray Pinpillage
From West Egg
Joined Jul 23, 2010
130 points


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