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New BD cams - rumor?
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Jul 5, 2012
The wife and I road-trippin on the Connie.
paintrain wrote:
These would seem to overlap with the C3s. Are they making an overlapping line or will they discontinue the C3? Speculation frenzy time. Pt


I doubt they'll discontinue anything. I'm betting these will overlap the largest 3 C3's and the smallest 4 C4's. One of the main complaints about the smaller C4's is the head width, and this could help them address that in their lineup and help them compete against mastercams and aliens in those sizes. The article lists sizes .1, .2, .3, .4, .5, and .75. I'm interested in knowing if they do better than small mastercams in shallow horizontals - if moderately cammed, flexing the cable can make that little spring/coil on the cable push the trigger bar back, uncamming it and making it fall out.
Larry S
From Easton, Pennsylvania
Joined May 28, 2010
921 points
Jul 5, 2012
Chuck Norris can Divide by Zero
If you look at the specs, based on the description in the article it will overlap directly with the C3 and C4. I don't argue that the 0.3 and 0.4 C4 are not the most desired pieces, but they already overlap with 0-2 C3s and somewhat with the 0.5 C4s.

"The Black Diamond Camalot X4 ("predator") comes in 6 different sizes (.1, .2, .3, .4, .5, .75)."

C4s in this range -
13.8-23.4 mm, 0.54-0.92 in (size 0.3)
15.5-26.7 mm, 0.61-1.05 in (size 0.4)
19.6-33.5 mm, 0.77-1.32 in (size 0.5)
23.9-41.2 mm, 0.94-1.62 in (size 0.75)

C3s in this range -
10.7-15.8 mm, 0.42-0.62 in (size 0) - 0.1 predator maybe?
12.0-18.8 mm, 0.47-0.74 in (size 1) - 0.2 predator maybe?
14.2-22.6 mm, 0.56-0.89 in (size 2) - overlaps pretty with existing C4 0.3

Back to my original premise - Replacing C4s and C3s? or overlapping and self-competing?

PT
paintrain
Joined Jan 22, 2007
86 points
Jul 5, 2012
Chillin' at City of Rocks
Personally I rather see the #3.5 and #4.5 come back. Plus I really like the old #4. There is simply to big of a gap from #3 to new #4 and to new #5...........,.
I mean really, they are making tons that overlap in smaller sizes....... So please make us OW lovers happy too!!!!
Princess Mia
From Vail
Joined May 22, 2006
427 points
Jul 5, 2012
OTL
paintrain wrote:
Back to my original premise - Replacing C4s and C3s? or overlapping and self-competing? PT


With that name, they're just trying to get something to compete against the re-released aliens.
How's it "self-competing" if you still buy their brand?
Matt N
From Santa Barbara, CA
Joined Oct 20, 2010
501 points
Mia they are trying to teach you that OW is something that ou only do if you have to. Your whole rack should not have to be dedicated to it. :p just kidding I like my OW too but not in the grades or quantity you do. Your crazy.
Jul 6, 2012
Dusk at the Rim Lounge, San Rafael Swell.
Warren Kanders + China + climbing gear = bad idea. Look into his history with other life-saving devices...like bullet proof vests. Bill Duncan
From Jamestown, CO
Joined Mar 30, 2005
2,890 points
Jul 6, 2012
Getting up the Great Dihedral on Hallet Peak, RMNP...
Well this certainly is interesting. I had just blindly speculated that BD has to be coming up with something new considering the latest flurry of activity with new/new-old cams coming out.

This does look like a relatively unique offering on the internal spring design. Interesting take on a cable housing feature that someone else has already noted has been used on bikes for years now! I am also with the others that speculate the price being pretty astronomical too. I'm sure we'll do what we can to get our hands on them, but the economy isn't really getting any easier for most of us, and it'll likely be a while after they come out that most of us will be able to afford these.

Wah wahhhh.
Tony T.
From Denver, CO
Joined Jul 29, 2009
46 points
Jul 6, 2012
Bill Duncan wrote:
Warren Kanders + China + climbing gear = bad idea. Look into his history with other life-saving devices...like bullet proof vests.


It's a good thing he's at the computer drawing up the models and testing them then...........
NorCalNomad
From San Francisco
Joined Oct 6, 2011
116 points
Jul 6, 2012
Chuck Norris can Divide by Zero
Matt N wrote:
With that name, they're just trying to get something to compete against the re-released aliens. How's it "self-competing" if you still buy their brand?


I would likely go in and buy a single cam in one size vs 2 different cams of the same size. BD will have to maintain two product lines that overlap and retailers will be expected to stock both. There are a good number of manufacturers that make cams of this range and you will be stacking another in the display. If you put them next to the master cams - price tag will play a big role.

Though I think the name is funny. It still just looks like BDs version of the Mastercam.

PT
paintrain
Joined Jan 22, 2007
86 points
Jul 6, 2012
Rock wars, Red River Gorge
General thoughts: Not sure what the "stacked axle" tech is all about, nor really sure on which sizes there will be a double axle. The pic running around looks like single axle to me. Just have to wait and see

While yes, these will somewhat cannibalize their C3 sales (and may even totally replace them in the long run), that isn't a good enough reason by itself for BD not to produce them. If people are buying mastercams and new aliens over C3s en masse, then these would better round out BD's portfolio and give them a fighting chance in the small cam market. Competition is good.

Personally, I don't like the C3s very much. They aren't particularly stable in pods and they're stiff, thus tending to walk and making placement more difficult. I've also found that offsets trump super narrow head width, at least in thin granite. Offsets tend to seat better in vertical pods and other weird shapes, which describes a LOT of finger crack. In other words, I'd reach for an offset mastercam or alien any day above a c3 in the majority of my climbing.

One other aspect is the metal used. Aliens have that wonderful soft aluminum. Though they can get wrecked pretty easily, they do bite nicely. It doesn't sound like BD is going this route, as it is being described as very durable.


In short, what BD should do here if it really wants to compete is that it should have 1) noticeably larger range over competitors (maybe), 2) offsets offered (doubtful, at least at first), 3)head widths substantially thinner than mastercams, preferably thinner than aliens (probably for the first, maybe for the second), and 4) compete pricewise (really doubtful).

As it looks, I'd probably favor the predators over the C3s, but not over aliens or mastercams unless they achieve a lot of the above. Still a good move for BD, but nothing revolutionary is going on here.



Edit to add: it's possible that where it will really shine is in the LARGER sizes (.3-.75), where the double axle will give it the range of the C4s, but narrower head widths. However, it could also be subject to the floppiness problems that the larger mastercams had. Again though, their competition is mostly with their own existing products.
shoo
Joined Aug 9, 2010
74 points
Jul 6, 2012
Bocan
Just a small tangent question here. When new cams / gear come out, do alot of you guys run out and buy it, kinda like a new apple product?

Just kinda curious since there seems to be alot of excitement about these cams. I still am using my BD single stem micros, but haha i'm also broke so I'm sure that's a major influence on my buying decisions.
Scott McMahon
From Boulder, CO
Joined Feb 15, 2006
952 points
Jul 6, 2012
Looking at a 5.7 crack with Nick
I doubt that these new cams will replace c3's. Think of it this way, instead of having a rack of c4's and c3's with doubles in Metolius/Fixe/Totem/Wild Country for the small sizes(to cover gaps, yadda yadda yadda), you could get a set of Black Diamond cams that compliment your c3's. Not only will the sizes overlap, one will be stiff, one will be flexible. One will have three lobes, one will have four.

Next step, another set of cams that compliment c4's. Makes a lot of sense to me. One company, one giant and diverse rack. Especially with how many BD fanboys there are out there.
Josh Olson
From Durango, CO
Joined Mar 7, 2010
362 points
Jul 6, 2012
Looking at a 5.7 crack with Nick
Scott McMahon wrote:
Just a small tangent question here. When new cams / gear come out, do alot of you guys run out and buy it, kinda like a new apple product? Just kinda curious since there seems to be alot of excitement about these cams. I still am using my BD single stem micros, but haha i'm also broke so I'm sure that's a major influence on my buying decisions.


When Helium Friends came out, I went and bought a full set of Tech Friends for wicked cheap. I'm hoping when these come out c3's take a temporary dip in prices. Wishful thinking, I know, but who doesn't love a new cam?
Josh Olson
From Durango, CO
Joined Mar 7, 2010
362 points
Jul 6, 2012
Bocan
Josh Olson wrote:
When Helium Friends came out, I went and bought a full set of Tech Friends for wicked cheap. I'm hoping when these come out c3's take a temporary dip in prices. Wishful thinking, I know, but who doesn't love a new cam?


haha didn't even think of that. Nice way to score a new rack!
Scott McMahon
From Boulder, CO
Joined Feb 15, 2006
952 points
Jul 6, 2012
The Dread Pirate Killis wrote:
I keep hearing about Wild Country banging out some newly designed big ones, supposedly in the 9" range, but haven't seen any on the shelves.



Backcountry has the #5/red (3.3" - 5.4") but not the #6/green (4.6" - 7.6")

backcountry.com/wild-country-t...

If you need 9" (giggity) then you'll probably have to go with a Valley Giant or stick with Big Bro's.
Allen Corneau
From Houston, TX
Joined May 6, 2008
91 points
Jul 6, 2012
Chillin' at City of Rocks
I love my 3.5s....... The ultimate fist for me!!! Princess Mia
From Vail
Joined May 22, 2006
427 points
Jul 6, 2012
blah
the WC helium friend #4 is almost exactly the old BD 3.5 and much lighter Rob Warden, Space Lizard
From Springdale Ut
Joined Dec 19, 2011
46 points
Jul 6, 2012
Chillin' at City of Rocks
Rob Warden wrote:
the WC helium friend #4 is almost exactly the old BD 3.5 and much lighter


I know.... I guess I am so used to grabbing the "right" color when stressing out.... I get sooo confused if my color scheme gets messed up...... Maybe it is simply the nerd in me..... :-)

But I don't think I need more in that size......really....yet....
Princess Mia
From Vail
Joined May 22, 2006
427 points
Jul 7, 2012
Grande Grotto
shoo wrote:
General thoughts: Not sure what the "stacked axle" tech is all about, nor really sure on which sizes there will be a double axle. The pic running around looks like single axle to me. Just have to wait and see


Curious if it has to do with how they align the axels (the axels are not in-line but rather offset from one another or "Stacked" on top) or if they terminate them at different lengths (inner lobe axel is shorter than outer lobe axel).

Agreed in the picture it's hard to tell if there are two axels or not...

Looking at the picture again it LOOKS like it could be axels of two different lengths with the inner peened end located INSIDE the outer lobes. That's kinda cool and certainly would make even the larger sizes nifty.


Stacked Axel possibilities?
Stacked Axel possibilities?
mattm
From TX
Joined Jun 2, 2006
1,238 points
Jul 7, 2012
I'd say WTF, but frankly now that you mention it if the lobes were the same size they'd likely fall in the same plane on the right hand side, which they don't.

Interesting.

Thought I had been playing with was a riff on US Patent 6042069 (which AFAIK BD had nothing to do with), but your idea sounds pretty good too. patentstorm.us/patents/6042069...

Side note, the shift noted by MattM above is what the VW VR6 thing was about... shifting the cylinders off a bit allowed for a V6 to fit in the space of a I4. Great idea, and I'm curious if this is the direction they took. That said, the offset tangent points are what caused walking problems with Maxcams, so...?

Anyway, I'm quite curious and love a bit of armchair engineering.... :-)
Aric Datesman
Joined Sep 16, 2008
145 points
Jul 8, 2012
I'm curious as well. My theory is that it is a single axel bent to be offset within the area of the outer lobe spring. If you look closely at the outer lobe, it looks to be two separate pieces. I suspect the small inner piece is basically a plate with one edge shaped in an arc with a center point in line with the center of the axel at the outer edges. This plate could then carry the forces placed on the outer lobe. If this is the case, I would think it would only work for small sizes. I would also suspect that the lobes are constructed of a hard alloy because the large spring cutout would result in high stresses within the lobe.

Aaron
Aaron Moses
From Abingdon, Va
Joined Aug 3, 2009
188 points
Jul 8, 2012
looks to me like it might be a single axle, but machined down to a smaller, and excentric diameter for the outer lobes... would lead to expanded range just like using two axles. Of course it would also require locking the axle securely in the head so it doesn't rotate, but that seems pretty easy (there must be a groove for the springs anyway, so a key of some sort would achieve that).
mmmhh...
Eric and Lucie
From Boulder, CO
Joined Oct 14, 2004
154 points
Jul 12, 2012
From their FB Page
From their FB Page
ClimbingPirate
Joined Jan 30, 2008
172 points
Administrator
Jul 12, 2012
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after...
The lobe attachment to the trigger in the closeup of the red cam on page 2 appear to be wires, the typical BD construction. However, the blue cam in the picture above appears to have a kevlar (or whatever that material is) coming from the lobe to the trigger assembly. Anyone else notice this? It's not a great picture, and I could be wrong, but if I'm not, and there are wires in one, and the non-metal on the other, it does raise some questions. Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Joined Jul 30, 2011
1,147 points
Jul 12, 2012
Jake Jones wrote:
The lobe attachment to the trigger in the closeup of the red cam on page 2 appear to be wires, the typical BD construction. However, the blue cam in the picture above appears to have a kevlar (or whatever that material is) coming from the lobe to the trigger assembly. Anyone else notice this? It's not a great picture, and I could be wrong, but if I'm not, and there are wires in one, and the non-metal on the other, it does raise some questions.


On the 2 prototypes that I handled a few months ago, one had the metal trigger wires and the other had non-metal wires-these could very well be those same protos, so you are seeing correctly.
SilverSnurfer
Joined May 11, 2012
5 points


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