.

.

I was at the boulders with Richard Harrison today (original stone master and general hardman) and we talked about the lack of respect shown in Vegas. What a disrespect to the FA team. What the hell are peoples problem? There are literally 1000's of routes in Red Rock of every shape, size, and safety margin. Why must every route have bolted anchors, no runouts, and just dumbed down? Its a sad day that this is what climbing has become.

Kurt Burt Arend

If I was out there they would already be gone.

josh

J. Thompson wrote:If I was out there they would already be gone. josh

please refer to Guideline #1

You don't like 'em don't use 'em.

The number of climbers just keeps growing, it begins to make sense to accomodate them on popular routes. An actual community of climbers would leave no place for vigilantes, whether bolting or unbolting.

anthony509 wrote: You don't like 'em don't use 'em.

So I chip a whole bunch of holds. You don't like 'em, don't use 'em.

Maybe I equip the entire pitch with iron ladders via ferrata style. You don't like 'em, don't use 'em.

How about this instead: a climb doesn't have enough pro for your ability level. You don't like it, don't do it.

Adding bolts changes a route permanently for everyone. At this point hordes have climbed the route without drilled protection. Leave it alone.

anthony509 wrote: The number of climbers just keeps growing, it begins to make sense to accommodate them on popular routes.

It doesn't even make a little sense. The climbers are supposed to aspire to the route, not drill it down to their current level of ability.

anthony509 wrote: An actual community of climbers would leave no place for vigilantes, whether bolting or unbolting.

An actual community of climbers wouldn't need "vigilantes" because that community would respect what has been done and learn their craft so that they can do it too.

[Edited to correct typos---thanks to Guy for pointing one out.]

To anthony509:

You can't climb it without 'em, don't climb it.

anthony509 wrote: please refer to Guideline #1 You don't like 'em don't use 'em. The number of climbers just keeps growing, it begins to make sense to accomodate them on popular routes. An actual community of climbers would leave no place for vigilantes, whether bolting or unbolting.

All around lame post.

One of the reasons Group Therapy was such a great route was precisely because of the lack of bolts. Here's a message to anthony509 and other would-be bolters of established routes: knock it off!!

anthony509 wrote: please refer to Guideline #1 You don't like 'em don't use 'em. The number of climbers just keeps growing, it begins to make sense to accomodate them on popular routes. An actual community of climbers would leave no place for vigilantes, whether bolting or unbolting.

1. don't hide your lame opinion behind rule #1. I think most people around here would agree that your post violates this rule.

2. your "don't like 'em, don't use 'em" attitude smacks of an entitlement attitude. Since it looks like you are coming off the road and joining the Vegas climbing community, learn this and learn it good....Don't add bolts to existing routes. You will wear out your welcome very fast.

3. Since climbing is growing, it makes more sense for climbers to learn how to climb routes as they are, so that they teeming masses don't ruin climbing for future generations. Climbing is about rising to the challenge that the rock presents, or at least rising to the challenge the first ascent party puts in front of you.

You strike me as the kind of guy that would suggest that everyone is a winner, regardless of ability and that climbing is about having fun. Well, I'm here to tell you that climbing is about much more than having the fun that a simpleton would call fun. Some of life's greatest personal accomplishments don't seem like fun at first, but upon reflection can be far more satisfying than "fun." There are great adventures to be had in the canyons of Red Rock, and some of them will scare the crap out of you because they lack bolts, try them, you'll see that they are far more rewarding experiences than instant gratification style "fun." If you want safe sanitized climbing experiences, may I direct you to the red rock climbing center on Charleston and Cimmaron.

anthony509 wrote: please refer to Guideline #1 You don't like 'em don't use 'em. The number of climbers just keeps growing, it begins to make sense to accomodate them on popular routes. An actual community of climbers would leave no place for vigilantes, whether bolting or unbolting.

This is so ignorant and pathetic: A snowballing disregard for what's right. Whatever dude. Josh took the words right out of my mouth.

I did this route on Nov 17th for the first time. I was totally impressed - I thought it was superior to Tunnel Vision. And the very first thing I said to my partner as we topped out was "This route is so cool! And you know what the best part is? It's 600' of great climbing and not a single piece of fixed pro! How cool is that?"

anthony509 wrote: You don't like 'em don't use 'em. .

+1. Well said.

You are referring to the routes... right? Since there are thousands of other routes on the planet, don't do them if you don't like em.

I was out there that day on Tunnel Vision.

Until now I'd assumed the couple was doing something I aspire to do... establishing a new line from the ground up. It was the first time I'd encountered an impact drill in the canyons, but I knew instantly what I was hearing. To think about the flow of inspiration I experienced every time the construction resumed is almost enough to forget how part of my tick list is now much different; less of a commitment. At every stance our six eyes scanned any rock we could see to try and be present for the creation of a line. Wow, I actually still get all excited thinking back to that day! Of course what's a visit to MP without some sweaty hands?!

Now reading this post and looking at the AFW on Handren's p.256 I realize they were definitely on the Group Therapy route when we saw them.

A couple questions: What if they were well experienced, but lacked prior knowledge of the area, and believed that they were the first party to attempt the line? Then is it OK to protect yourself with the tools you carried along? Most of the time in Red Rock I feel like you can tell whether you're on route or on virgin stone very easily... but I got off route enough on Windy Corner to go ahead and call it a variation. What if I'd had a drill? What if I'd proudly drilled myself an anchor on what would certainly become the new standard route... that turned out to be on Hut Fudge Thursday?

What if it was an old head in the Vegas climbing scene?

Anyway, thought I'd chime in since I was there when it went down. By the way, I was climbing Tunnel Vision that day with anthony509 who SENT! Nice work dude.

anthony509 wrote: please refer to Guideline #1 You don't like 'em don't use 'em. The number of climbers just keeps growing, it begins to make sense to accomodate them on popular routes. An actual community of climbers would leave no place for vigilantes, whether bolting or unbolting.

I consider Group Therapy to be one of the best 5.7's in the country (IMHO!).
I've climbed the route 4 times. The first time I climbed it was back when there wasn't even a topo for the route, you had to follow Swains dubious description. We also climbed Tunnel Vision that day.
The second time I climbed it I did so Free solo.
The 3rd time I also climbed, tunnel vision, Healy's Haunted house, and Olive Oil...the same day. Then I went back and did it with a friend for a casual super fun day.

Never once did I think there shold be a bolt anywhere on the climb.
I'm not an antibolt guy.
However adding bolts to a high quality route, such as this, in a climate of change, as it relates to the BLM's policy, is much more "vigliante" than removing the bolts.

If they are not removed by the time I get back to Vegas, I WILL remove them.

I'd think Joe would approve.

Edited: Cleaned up my grammar and spelling mistakes.

josh

Mike T wrote: A couple questions: What if they were well experienced, but lacked prior knowledge of the area, and believed that they were the first party to attempt the line? Then is it OK to protect yourself with the tools you carried along? .

It is the FA's responsibility to have a working knowledge of the local standards, ethics and existing routes in any area that they wish to develop or add fixed hardware too.

Can someone please answer the OP's question. Are there actually new bolts on the route or is this just a rumor?

Greg D wrote: +1. Well said. You are referring to the routes... right? Since there are thousands of other routes on the planet, don't do them if you don't like em.

+1 - well stated Greg

Julius Beres wrote:Can someone please answer the OP's question. Are there actually new bolts on the route or is this just a rumor?

According to the supertopo post and Mike T watching people hammer drill away on the route, I would have to believe so.

J. Thompson wrote: If there are not removed by the time I get back to Vegas, I WILL remove them. I'd think Joe would approve. josh

Agreed

I wish the people who did it would log in (even anonymously) and let us know what their thought process was. I can't imagine any experienced climber would do it, unless they're on some sort of ridiculous safety crusade that's way off base with the broader climbing community. So it has to be some noob who got a bolt kit and just doesn't know any better. That's the only explanation I can think of.

I think I told the story once before where a noob climber joined us in RR. He went to do Lotta Balls while I did Black Magic. The first pitch went poorly and he yelled up to let me know he was going to the car for the drill. What for? To retrieve the 3 cams that he'd jammed on the first pitch. I couldn't believe it, but he clearly thought it would be perfectly acceptable to drill a 5-star RR classic to get his cams back. The people who did this must be similarly oblivious.

Tom Fralich wrote:I think I told the story once before where a noob climber joined us in RR. He went to do Lotta Balls while I did Black Magic. The first pitch went poorly and he yelled up to let me know he was going to the car for the drill. What for? To retrieve the 3 cams that he'd jammed on the first pitch.

OK, I wasn't at the campfire when you told it last time...so what did he do?

-sp wrote: OK, I wasn't at the campfire when you told it last time...so what did he do?

Oh, I told him as nicely as possible that if he went to the car, I'd be on the ground by the time he got back, prepared to defend the route at any cost. He seemed to get the point, and it seems went on to be a fairly accomplished trad climber. My point is that the people who did it are probably beginners and completely oblivious to the rules and the general ethics of bolting in a place like RR. They probably think they did everyone a favor.

I can see how it happens. The gym in Fresno is full of teenagers who climb hard but have no mentoring, despite an "instructor" who struts around like he owns the place. It's sad, because its probably people just like them who are going out and bolting Group Therapy.

Tom Fralich wrote:My point is that the people who did it are probably beginners and completely oblivious to the rules and the general ethics of bolting in a place like RR.

Sorry, Tom, my unfounded speculation is that a local guide is the only type of person that would consider bolting a trade route like this. Most climbers are satisfied to do a climb once and move on; only a guide would benefit from the time and trouble of bolting a route because they are the ones that climb the same routes over and over again. Look at Crimson Chrysalis: a line with many bolted cracks, most likely thanks to our local guide services. Totally baseless speculation, I know, I'm just calling it like I see it.

John Hegyes wrote:Sorry, Tom, my unfounded speculation is that a local guide is the only type of person that would consider bolting a trade route like this.

Doesn't make any sense to me. Who climbs at an established crag, on an established route, in Red Rocks, with a power drill? Someone who planned on doing this, that's who.

Can't imagine a legit guide would do this. The climb just isn't that difficult especially in the locations reported as having the bolts. A long time RR climber, who felt they had the right (and permission from some of the FA folks)? Someone bandit guiding? A local boyscout leader prepping the route for his team? Dunno.

Really strange. And, pretty bold.

Has there been a significant accident on the first or second pitch in the last few years? Maybe that would provide someone motivation.

A guide service would be in pretty darn serious trouble with a land manager if they added bolts like this. Pretty sure their permit would go "poof". Which is why it doesn't make sense to me that at least anyone remotely legit as a guide would do it.

If someone yanks them, post up. Hate to see Josh get too many more laps on that crag...(!). I'd be curious to see the hardware placed, too. Or, as they say, this thead is invalid without photo's!