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Neon Genesis Project 

Hueco: V11+ Font: 8A

   
Type:  Boulder, 25'
Consensus:  Hueco: V11+ Font: 8A [details]
FA: None. Really hard. You should do it.
Page Views: 869
Submitted By: Sean Denny on Apr 23, 2011

You & This Route  |  Other Opinions (1)
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Description 

If it gets done it will likely be the hardest problem in Santa Barbara.

Sit start at the big flake. Instead of heading left like Debra, go straight up to a pair of nice crimps. Make a huge move up to a marginal sidepull pinch. Make another big move up right to a poor sidepull edge. From here, either go straight and try to get to jugs (far away), or make an insane left cross to a good edge and join up with the Loser arete.

Very intimidating, but the falls are clean and the moves are there.

You should do it.

Location 

Debra boulder

Protection 

Pads and Spotters


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Comments displayed oldest to newestSkip Ahead to the Most Recent Dated Feb 11, 2013
By andy patterson
Administrator
From: Santa Barbara, CA
Oct 29, 2011

Insanely proud. I'm considering devoting the next four years to train my digits, skin, and mental focus for the send. Just kidding. But the problem MUST get done.

Good landing, clean-ish holds, striking line... what more could you want?
By Bob Banks
Nov 16, 2011

Solid rock?
By andy patterson
Administrator
From: Santa Barbara, CA
Dec 17, 2011

I would like some solid rock, yes. That would be a Christmas miracle.
By Tim King
Feb 8, 2013

After the first move from the huge flake, you are on two side by side crimps. The left hand one (which is also commonly used as a foothold to climb Debra) is flexing a lot.

Most of the potential suitors I've brought to look at the project have been fairly wary of breaking said hold, as thus haven't put that much effort into it. I was just wondering what peoples thoughts are as far as glue/epoxy? I've never done it before, but have seen it other places in SB. This seems like a situation that may warrant it, as if that crimp broke the project and Debra would be much harder (if they still go).

Just curious as to peoples thoughts on the topic. I'm okay with whatever, certainly don't need to do it, but it probably would increase peoples motivation to try really hard on this project.

(I guess that kinda answers Bob's question; ha!)
By andy patterson
Administrator
From: Santa Barbara, CA
Feb 8, 2013

Mutanks Amok has tons of epoxy. Based on that precedent (i.e. if the problem is super good) I say use epoxy. Talk to me (or Phil) if you want to do it right.
By Bob Banks
Feb 9, 2013

Mutants Amok is a bad example if you want to talk about a precedent for gluing. There is a sordid history behind all that gunk and it has nothing to do with ‘reinforcing’ the hold.

For what it’s worth, I have always been against any gluing rock in Santa Barbara. There are a few reasons for this, so please hear me out:

1) It doesn’t last. All the sandstone here is choss. Potter's Point in particular is one step further: mega-choss. People have used Sika/epoxy on SB sandstone in the past and IT DOES NOT LAST. You might get a couple more years out of a hold, MAYBE. Especially on the hold you’re talking about. Sorry, but that thing’s a goner any which way you slice it. The bolt hold on Midnight Lightning (glued on since the 80s) sees a thousand people wrenching on it every season and it’s not going anywhere. That’s granite. Glued holds at Pine Mt. or The Brickyard (where comparatively nobody climbed) have lasted a couple years. Yes, there are a few still out there, no, I won’t tell you where. Potter's Point sandstone? Forget about it.

2) Gluing is elitist. Nobody suggests gluing jugs back onto classic V0s (they become V2s), but somehow the upper end of the spectrum is acceptable?

3) Glue is ugly. Virtually nobody who’s ever glued anything has ever done a good job of it. It’s usually hideous, and looks even worse when the hold eventually breaks, as it almost always does.

4) Where do you stop? If you glue this one, well, what about that hold on that problem over there? And then there’s that one over there…that’s the bane of chossy rock. Next thing you know you’ve got a beautiful location that’s a hideous mess where the holds are still breaking off (ever been to Echo Cliffs?).

It’s super-rad that there’s a gang finally developing Potter's. Nobody else until now could ever get psyched enough to keep going back. Steve Edwards and I went up there last fall to check out the development you guys had done and curiously we weren’t any more motivated than we had been 15-whatever years ago. That's our problem though, a newer generation is psyched on it, we just aren't. Neon Genesis, Debra, The Brute line, etc. are all great looking lines but if you so much as wink at a hold it flexes.

I practically don’t climb anymore and if you guys glue one hold up there or a thousand I probably won’t even notice, so my vent on this probably doesn’t mean shit. My vote though is to take the high road. If it breaks, it breaks, and I will leave you with a very short list of boulder problems that broke in the past that people thought either "wouldn't go" again (they did) or would be "way harder" (they weren't):

Break On Through (Painted Cave)
Mister Witty (The Brickyard, actually every single problem at the Brickyard probably falls into this category)
Surprise (Pine Mt.)
Frenchman's Worst Nightmare (Pine Mt.)
Call Me (Lizard's Mouth - pre-chisel)
By Richard Shore
Feb 9, 2013

I agree wholeheartedly with EVERYTHING Bob just said.

I'm not much of a boulderer, but here are some examples of failed epoxy jobs on SB sport climbs - where the reinforced holds broke anyway:

-Beggars Banquet 5.11+, 7 Falls
-Titanium Albatross 5.12, 7 Falls
-To Epoxy or Not to Be 5.13?, Earthwatch Wall
-practically everything at The Amphitheater 5.12-5.14, Playground area.

Notice that there aren't any easy or moderate routes in that list? This plays into the "elitist" idea mentioned above.

Also - Tim, how can you grade a problem that you haven't sent?
By Tim King
Feb 9, 2013

Thanks for the responses and input everyone.

You all make good points. I've never glued anything, and honestly wasn't even planning to do it. However, having showed some people this problem recently, the idea inevitably comes up. So I decided to just toss it up here and get some info from the community. It's nice to now have a general consensus on the topic, and it makes sense. Our local stone is choss. Holds break, change and morph over time, whether through natural forces or otherwise. Gluing probably won't help, especially long term, and can leave things 'worse' than before.

Although it's easy to understand why the idea to glue comes up, especially seeing it at so many places in SB. Though you categorize Mutants Amok as a failed epoxy job, without it I may never have had the chance to climb it, and thus from a different perspective doesn't seem so failed. But as you say, perhaps it wasn't even necessary in the first place(?) and did nothing but mar the rock and rob all future suitors of the chance to climb the route au natural.

One new area I'm doing some work, the stone is even softer than the Brickyard. Holds come off left and right, multiple layers of lovely choss. I'm not planning to glue anything, and basically the way I see it, climb it til it brakes, and then climb it some more. Almost like unearthing gems, somewhere in there...

Richard: Time machine. Premonition. Telepathic? ;) Actually, I just found the trashcan.

Thanks again fellas
By Bob Banks
Feb 9, 2013

Once again: Mutants Amok is a bad example if you want to talk about a precedent for gluing holds. The "glued" hold Tim and Andy are referring to was chiseled into a fingerbucket 1995-ish(?) by a party who shall remain nameless. The hold was then filled in with [ugly] glue to return the problem to its more 'natural' state by another party who shall remain Stainless...errr, nameless. There is a longer and slightly humorous story behind all this hullabaloo that didn't make the final cut into Ocean's 11, although I believe I did mention something about it in the problem description for Mutants.

Again: The epoxy on that hold has absolutely nothing to do with reinforcement.
By Tim King
Feb 11, 2013

Yeah, I wasn't trying to give Mutants as a good example, just wanted to show that without background information, it can look like there is some precedent to gluing in SB. Strange that someone would even chisel that hold, as it's still pretty jug-like in it's current form...

Also, I noticed a series of fingerpockets on the thin crack above Mutants that appear to be filled with epoxy. Was this a similar incident?

Thanks again though for bringing up such good points as far as gluing goes. I hadn't really planned on gluing anything, hell that's effort that could be better spent finding new beta after the hold brakes, but posted this up to get some info from the community on the subject. However, it is something that comes up, and it's nice to have these solid points to consider and let others consider as well.
By andy patterson
Administrator
From: Santa Barbara, CA
Feb 11, 2013

Well, I'm glad we're finally talking about this.

Bob, thanks for clearing up the Mutants Amok issue. I thought the glue was keeping the hold on the wall, and I did interpret that as "reinforcement" on some level. And, to add my voice to the consensus: I agree with Bob that glue simply doesn't last in SB, or on any of the choss in proximity to SB (again, read: Echo Cliffs, where you undergo paroxysms of terror whilst grabbing every single glued hold). So based on that issue alone, I think gluing probably shouldn't happen. In theory, gluing CAN work (again, Midnight Lightning), and has been applied extensively in sport-climbing areas the world over. But that's another discussion. This is SB, and we need to define an ethic that works.

Potters Point is a beautiful place, and the projects there are enticing (the Brute, in my opinion, is quite rad. Debra is okay, but its days are numbered with that flexing start hold), but I don't think the climbing will ever FULLY clean up. It's just the reality of things. In fact, very little of SB Rock will develop in to the perfect patina we all wish it was. No matter: folks have fun, so that's all that matters.

HOWEVER!

My good buddy Scott Wasko was up at the Brickyard today, just to check on the conditions after the recent rain, and he witnessed a horde of L.A.-based climbers descend upon the still-wet rock. According to Scott, they broke holds on Mr. WItty, All Mod Cons, and Smooth Criminal—to name a few. I understand rock changes and breaks—hence this whole discussion about cleaning and gluing in the first place—but there are simple steps we can take to mitigate the erosion of problems. I'm holding back some ire towards those hapless L.A. climbers, but in the meantime, a reminder: LET THE ROCK DRY AFTER RAINS. We all should know better.