My plan for 3 climbers multi-pitch

I want to do a couple of the two pitch routes around here with 3 climbers. I plan to lead while trailing a rope for a third, so second and third can simul-climb 15' apart while I top belay both of them

That puts all 3 of us at bolted anchor stations at the same time, which seems too crowded for most routes.

I'm thinking that I keep the third right below us at all stations with a clove hitch from his rope to the master point. This would seem to work fine in my mind for all pitches.

Two scenarios I need to understand better is when (1) rapping off and (2) rapping off when two ropes are required

(1) Rapping off: I'm thinking that first and second rap off with one rope, pull rope through....then the 3rd climbs up, attaches to anchors, runs rope through and raps. When 3rd reaches top of next station, stops and waits for first and second to clear out due to space, then raps to the station, attaches to anchor, runs rope through and raps.

(2) rapping off when two ropes are required: In this scenario, all three of use will have to be attached to the top anchor system to tie both ropes. I'm thinking I would need to bring ~22' of cordelette to double up with figure 8's on both ends and attach the 3rd so he is anchored below us (10' below bolts) to keep station from being two crowded.

After first and second rap, third climbs up, connects sling to master point from belay loop, attaches ATC then raps down to next station. When he gets to us, I take the 22' cordelette from him, attach one end to master point with figure 8 on other end hanging 10' below the bolts. He raps past us, connects to the cordelette, so first and second can rap. Repeat above.

Thoughts?

Do you already know that the belay ledges and rap stations are too small for three people?

Edit: I'd prefer to keep the group of three together as much as possible. For both belay and rap stations.

I agree about finding a way to stay together. If you are the leader you are responsible . I like to keep it all close enough to touch so I can double check everything.

Brian morin wrote:I want to do a couple of the two pitch routes around here with 3 climbers. I plan to lead with second trailing a rope for a third. That puts all 3 of us at bolted anchor stations at the same time, which seems too crowded for most routes. I'm thinking that I keep the third right below us at all stations with a clove hitch from his rope to the master point. This would seem to work fine in my mind for all pitches. Two scenarios I need to understand better is when (1) rapping off and (2) rapping off when two ropes are required (1) Rapping off: I'm thinking that first and second rap off with one rope, pull rope through....then the 3rd climbs up, attaches to anchors, runs rope through and raps. When 3rd reaches top of next station, stops and waits for first and second to clear out due to space, then raps to the station, attaches to anchor, runs rope through and raps. (2) rapping off when two ropes are required: In this scenario, all three of use will have to be attached to the top anchor system to tie both ropes. I'm thinking I would need to bring ~22' of cordelette to double up with figure 8's on both ends and attach the 3rd so he is anchored below us (10" feet below bolts) to keep station from being two crowded. After first and second rap, third climbs up, connects sling to master point from belay loop, attaches ATC then raps down to next station. When he gets to us, I take the 30' cordelette from him, attach one end to master point with figure 8 on other end hanging 10' below the bolts. He raps past us, connects to the cordelette, so first and second can rap. Repeat above. Thoughts?

Way too complex and for beginners, confusing. It's actually rare that there isn't a place/stances on most routes, esp multi pitch. Consider that most multi-pitch routes end their pitches where there is a belay ledge (usually). Keep it simple; keep the party together; learn how to construct a hanging belay if necessary (at some point in your climbing you will need that skill if you don't have it already). Personally I wouldn't bother with the cordelette, but that's me (I've used one - actually it was what used to be known as a triple-length sling - perhaps 5 times in 40+ years of climbing - currently don't even own one).

FrankPS wrote:Do you already know that the belay ledges and rap stations are too small for three people? Edit: I'd prefer to keep the group of three together as much as possible. For both belay and rap stations.

Ya, I know the stations. I've done with two and most of them feel like they would be too crowded to add a third.

Man, that sounds super complicated and time consuming. Especially if you're climbing with beginners, and one poor soul suffers a lonely hanging belay the end of each pitch.

As already suggested, keep the group together. There won't consistently be 3 people at belays, and if you feel they'll be too uncomfortable, find a different route. However, I've climbed extensively with 2 seconds and have never come across a stance I couldn't make work. It's part of multi pitch climbing.

Same deal with rapping. Keep the group together and descend as you would normally with one partner, except you'll have two. And, if you're with newbs, you'll need to pre-rig their devices and give them a fireman's belay from below. If you don't know how to do this, best to figure it out on the ground.

I know this is the "Beginning Climbers" forum. Still, can you clarify the experience level of the other two? Does either have enough experience to reliably, without someone checking, ...

• belay from above;
• thread their rap device and rap;
• be first to rap and find the next rap station (or ascend back up the rope if they can't find the next anchor);
• rap comfortably on a single-strand rope?

Many of us go to work everyday and deal with problems that are far more complex then that of a multi pitch climb. The circumstances are not as dire but more complex. Do not over analyze it because lives are involved. The situations and problems when climbing are for the most part solved with basic common sense. It ain't rocket science.

When I climb 3 man teams on multi I lead, belay the first up, lead to the first bolt or first gear piece put a sling in and wait for climber two to belay climber 3 or rope 2 up to the anchor point then finish the pitch and repeat

1) Lead the first pitch
2) belay the second up (make sure he has an easy way to unclip and start climbing and also leave a easy way for the 3rd to hook into the anchor (this is the only risk you have since you can't make sure the 3rd hooks in when he gets to the first belay, but if you leave a hanging biner for him to clip into shouldn't be a problem)
3) Setup the belay for the 3rd
4) lead the second pitch
5) belay the 2nd up top the top
6) belay the 3rd up to the top
7) setup both 2nd and the 3rd on rappel
8) you rappel down
9) have those 2 rappel down 1 at a time so you know they are setup correct and can fireman / watch them at the end

This is pretty much considering they don't know much of anything. If you are that worried about them go ahead and bring both up to the first belay but make sure you are setup to start climbing asap when the last guy gets up.

Bill Lawry wrote:I know this is the "Beginning Climbers" forum. Still, can you clarify the experience level of the other two? Does either have enough experience to reliably, without someone checking, ... * belay from above; * thread their rap device and rap; * be first to rap and find the next rap station (or ascend back up the rope if they can't find the next anchor); * rap comfortably on a single-strand rope?

Neither has lead experience but they can both thread a rap

Just squeeze everyone into the same belay. You're only going to have 3 there for like a minute at a time before the leader starts climbing or the 1st person starts rappelling. And belay both seconds up at the same time. Trail the second rope yourself while you're leading and then put them both on a guide mode ATC. The other options are viable but is it so bad to get a little cozy for a minute?

Brian morin wrote:I'm thinking that I keep the third right below us at all stations with a clove hitch from his rope to the master point.

Doesn't sound comfortable - unless you put 'em on a long enough leash (rope) to be at a good stance. Might be kind of spook-y for 'em to later climb up on that fixed leash while not on belay (think big drop if fall). I've done the leash thing once or twice with a partner for a really tiny belay ledge with another small ledge near by. But I wouldn't go into the climb with this as the default course of action.

For merely a couple two-pitch routes and if the belay ledges worry you that much, I'd consider not having the other two concurrently climb. What's the hurry? If you avoid that, there are other sequences to keep from having more than two on a ledge (some already mentioned).