Mountaineering without the use of snow stakes

Ok so I have been using stakes since the beginning of time. Never leave home without them (except in the Sierra).

Now, you can't even buy a pack with snow stake holders anymore. Why is this? because know one uses them any more. But how? What do you do on those soft Descents for things like raping and lowering? What do you do on those mushy Glaciers for a belay across a dodgy bridge.

How do you mountaineer without the use of snow stakes?

You can still carry pickets on a pack without a side pocket.

That said, fair question. The design ethic seems to be to strip details to a clean and simple design and lightest possible weight - sometimes at the cost of some utility.

It's easy to modify most packs to add the feature back in if you really feel that it's necessary.

I strap them to the side compression straps or added bungee cord with cord locks. Dyneema runner or looped cord to keep the pickets from falling out (can still remove/grab with one hand).

Pickets seem to be losing popularity in areas with heavy guiding - short rope guide style somehow prevents crevasse falls or something like that.

Ryan Marsters wrote:I strap them to the side compression straps or added bungee cord with cord locks. Dyneema runner or looped cord to keep the pickets from falling out (can still remove/grab with one hand). Pickets seem to be losing popularity in areas with heavy guiding - short rope guide style somehow prevents crevasse falls or something like that.

Short roping in crevasse fields would increase crevasse falls if anything.

I was just kind of wandering how people climb without them. What do they do in soft snow conditions?

Yippyyippychangchang wrote: What do they do in soft snow conditions?

stay home and drink beer.

In all seriousness I own some pickets and have very rarely used them, although I do have to say they came in quite handy on Rainier.

Yippyyippychangchang wrote:Now, you can't even buy a pack with snow stake holders anymore.

Huh? Osprey Variant has them and that's one of the more popular mountaineering packs out there.

Yippyyippychangchang wrote:What do they do in soft snow conditions?

Go skiing, of course.

Martin le Roux wrote: Huh? Osprey Variant has them and that's one of the more popular mountaineering packs out there. Go skiing, of course.

Yea they are popular, but they are junk. Fall to bits.

But unless you are climbing mid winter the conditions are going to get soft on the way down aren't they. How are these guys getting down without snow stakes?

Oh well, guess know one will ever know. Be nice to leave them at home. Big clunky heavy old things.

I've found that if the snow is firm enough to hold a picket then I don't need one. It's on steep bottomless facets where I get scared and try and place a picket, only to realize the snow is shit and therefore the picket useless. To rap over schrunds and other obstacles I'd much rather chop a bollard then dig a T slot and leave a picket. The bollard is bomber and doesn't leave garbage on the mountain. If the snow isn't firm enough for a bollard to work the picket won't work either.

Perhaps the only think they're useful for is aiding overhanging snow to get over a schrund.

There is a little misinformation bouncing around this thread.

Pickets are still widely used. They are generally the standard for snow protection (although flukes are still floating around in use as well).

There have been more recent changes in HOW they are used. And some manufacturers are modifying the design in some key ways.

Running belays, belay anchors, fixed lines, crevasse rescue anchors - all excellent applications for pickets if the snow conditions are appropriate. Snow conditions will of course vary how or if they are employed.

They are simply another tool on the tool belt. Sometimes they are the protection of choice … and sometimes there is a better option. Your decision on whether to carry them should consider multiple factors: from conditions to route objective to experience level. But they are certainly not out of date or no longer necessary.

And "short roping" definitely does not prevent crevasse falls.

I should probably clarify the sarcasm or use idiot font. Pre-rigging prusiks and utilizing traditional glacier travel tends to be ignored in some guided areas where short hauling clients with a couple butterflies in the rope seems to be the norm. Not a big fan of that though naturally not all guides are the same.

I love flukes and ya what is the other option for running belays?

Also jfs, its been a while is there any info/writeups on the "recent changes in HOW they are used"?

Maybe the upright mid clip?

Snow stakes are a great all round tool. Just a nuisance to carry and destroy packs.

also butterfly's on the rope while in glacier travel mode works wanders in soft snow.

I would have thought short roping would be nuts on a glacier due to being so close together. Both go in?

Never had a problem with pickets destroying packs. My main big pack is a Golite quest. No problems other than from tools and hip belt fraying. I've been using a modified MEC Alpinelite for glacier daytrips. Bit sturdier than the Golite, but again no problems or wear from stakes. I've had stakes shift and tear through a down jacket or two when arresting but that's it. I still find pickets quite useful for the examples jfs listed and would be very hesitant not to bring them on a glacier. I have a few cheap 2 ft ones left over from Peru that I like and use often, an expensive 2 ft MSR one purchased for Rainier and now rarely used, and a 3 ft mega picket purchased in Chamonix because they didn't have anything else.

With a 2p rope team, I normally just spread out a bit more and take extra care crossing bridges/crevasses, utilizing quick belays or intermediate pro more often than I would with a 3 p. I've seen butterflies used but never used them on a glacier - how do they take the butterflies out in the event of a haul situation or ascending the rope? Time-consuming prusik/tibloc setups to unload the knot? I never quite understood the practice there.

Our (mandatory) guides in Ecuador short roped us, which I wasn't particularly happy about. They also didn't bring screws for a route requiring screws. I was happy to have brought a couple else they would have turned us around and pocketed the money like they do with Cotopaxi AMS cases or Antisana "whoops forgot about the summit crevasse" trips. French-trained and internationally certified. Similarly, I saw several guides in France short roping clients through glaciated terrain. Typically with a watchful eye and ready to arrest, but zero contingency plans for a leader fall. It seemed more of an efficiency deal maximizing profits without having to spend time training clients. I figured they just relied on nearby parties to yank them out in the statistically low likelihood event of the guide taking a significant crevasse fall. Efficient, but not particularly safe. The guides in Peru seemed to provide more training to their clients but the quality of the training was quite variable.

I just use home made stakes. Alpine butterflys catch on the lip of the crevasse and prevent big falls. Try it, it works.

These guides sound weird. They aren't like that here in NZ.

Yippyyippychangchang wrote: Yea they are popular, but they are junk. Fall to bits.

My Variant has been going strong for years now, and it has had tons of use in that time. Everything from technical alpine climbing to glacier travel. I have several friends that have the pack as well and all would almost assuredly refer to it as bomb proof. Plus, Osprey will fix anything you send them if something does break or wears out. Not sure if you had a bad experience, but it seems outside the norm from my past experiences with Osprey.

There are plenty of other packs that have the ability to clip pickets to the hip belts still. Even my REI Pinnacle pack has that ability.

Yippyyippychangchang wrote:Now, you can't even buy a pack with snow stake holders anymore. Why is this?

Most mountaineering specific packs still come with a side pocket. I have an Arcteryx Nozone 35 from last season that was a side pocket for stakes or probe.

Ray Pinpillage wrote: Most mountaineering specific packs still come with a side pocket. I have an Arcteryx Nozone 35 from last season that was a side pocket for stakes or probe.

Yea but they are few and far between these days aren't they. Every pack use to have them.

send me your pack, I will add whatever you want. Or buy a $100 sewing machine. Or a $5 sewing kit. adding a pocket and a strap or two is super easy man.

Yippyyippychangchang wrote:I just use home made stakes. Alpine butterflys catch on the lip of the crevasse and prevent big falls. Try it, it works. These guides sound weird. They aren't like that here in NZ.

As in, you're tying a single alpine butterfly in the rope between each partner and that catches as the rope is sawing through the lip as you are plummeting into the crevasse?

Watched that video a while back about 2 man teams trying to arrest a crevasse fall and not one of them could arrest the fall. Kinda scary demonstration.

Yippyyippychangchang wrote: Yea but they are few and far between these days aren't they. Every pack use to have them.

Old packs used to have side pockets for water bottles, not specifically for pickets. I guess I'm contradicting myself but nearly every pack on the market has a provision for pickets but not necessarily a pocket. Side pockets are not secure on their own and require compression straps. If there is compression straps there is picket provisions, regardless of pockets. So I suppose you're right, most mountain packs don't have water bottle pockets on the outside anymore and that feature is relegated to all-purpose day-packs. If you want to carry pickets I don't think there is any shortage of options.

Yea I saw that to. You tie more than one. Like one near each person and if it is really soft tie a bunch of them.