More ARCing or Projecting?

Hello everyone,

I'm new to Mountain Project, and as for the climbing world, I've only been climbing seriously for about 7 months now.

A bit of background:
I started out simply just climbing indoors, rainbowing what was there and then started moving on to more specific routes. I focused mainly on top roping and started climbing at the oh-so-humbling 5.5 level. Just last week was my first 5.10c redpoint

Just to go over what my training and climbing has been like as of late: I climb 5-6 days a week, ARCing about 5 days a week consisting of 5x5 top rope laps ranging any where from 5.5 to 5.7. Then I typically go and climb a bunch of other routes typically none under 5.9. For instance, yesterday I did 25 laps at the beginning of a session (5.7, 5.5, 5.7, 5.6, 5.7) then hoped over, and did, for the next hour and a half, about a dozen 5.9 to 5.10 climbs, some clean the whole way through and some falling off at cruxes, but working through every single one.

A few of my more advanced friends however are concerned I'm going to grind myself into the ground with all of the ARC sessions. I've been doing laps for as long as I can remember with climbing, every day I climb it would seem for the last 5 months. That being said, my climbing friends HAVE said I've made huge improvements since I started.

I was wondering, however, if I should start focusing on just climbing harder problems with less volume or continue the ARC sessions and then going after harder sends?

Just looking for some direction on how to improve is all.

If you are looking to climb harder, then climb harder, arcing is probably doing very little for your strength gains, unless the reason you can't climb harder grades is that you are getting pumped out on the <5.6 moves. Arc training is what you do to warm up for 20 mins or on rest days, but the bulk of your climbing should be hard. You are probably best served working on a bunch of routes near your limit, and just work on technique and mileage on semidifficult terrain

i am a believer in arc but since you are so new i think getting on more varied climbs will help you way more than arc'ing. right now anything will help you improve thats why you are seeing gains with all the arcing but i think you will progress way faster by: trying different climbs, projecting stuff, leading a lot, bouldering. Maybe arc once a week if you are really into it for part of a session (like 20-30 mins). when you finally hit a plateau as you progressthen you reassess and see if you need more endurance or more strength. but cause climbing is so skill based the technique you will get from climbing stuff that is harder for you will be very helpful...hope this helps.

Thank you both for the replies.

Indeed, I have seen huge improvements in just my technique and understanding of movement (I must say when one of your climbing friends who was crushing grades ahead of you says, "Oh so THAT'S the move to get through the crux..." after you complete a redpoint is nice).

That being said, I do try a variety of climbs, like you said. Some are slabs, some overhung, even a few arches. I did do a 2 week bouldering stint actually when my local gym took down all the top ropes for a bouldering competition. The only reason I cut back was after the second week, my fingers felt like the tendons were really inflamed, I could barely close my hands some days.

When you say try climbing harder routes, would you suggest I try and pick a bunch of projects (5.10c and up) and just keep going at them until I red point them?

As for where it seems I am weakest, it definitely seems like strength is the limiting factor. I don't really get pumped out on easy moves over a long period of time, the biggest issue I run into is hitting dynamic contact moves or powering through overhung or really steep moves.

Gary.Taylor717 wrote:Thank you both for the replies. Indeed, I have seen huge improvements in just my technique and understanding of movement (I must say when one of your climbing friends who was crushing grades ahead of you says, "Oh so THAT'S the move to get through the crux..." after you complete a redpoint is nice). That being said, I do try a variety of climbs, like you said. Some are slabs, some overhung, even a few arches. I did do a 2 week bouldering stint actually when my local gym took down all the top ropes for a bouldering competition. The only reason I cut back was after the second week, my fingers felt like the tendons were really inflamed, I could barely close my hands some days. When you say try climbing harder routes, would you suggest I try and pick a bunch of projects (5.10c and up) and just keep going at them until I red point them? As for where it seems I am weakest, it definitely seems like strength is the limiting factor. I don't really get pumped out on easy moves over a long period of time, the biggest issue I run into is hitting dynamic contact moves or powering through overhung or really steep moves.

Boulder more, start with once a week and take as many days as you need to recover

redlude97 wrote: Boulder more, start with once a week and take as many days as you need to recover

Alright. Any suggestions on how? Do you mean just go in and hit as many problems as I can (V2 MAYBE V3 is my limit, it all depends on the holds and the terrain). Project and go hard 1-2 days a week of bouldering and TR the rest? I'm also looking to train more for leading, and I know locking off strength is a huge factor in that as well.

Gary.Taylor717 wrote: Alright. Any suggestions on how? Do you mean just go in and hit as many problems as I can (V2 MAYBE V3 is my limit, it all depends on the holds and the terrain). Project and go hard 1-2 days a week of bouldering and TR the rest? I'm also looking to train more for leading, and I know locking off strength is a huge factor in that as well.

Yep, you are so new that structure doesn't matter too much, boulder at your limit 1-2 times a week, and if it hurts afterwards, rest a couple days until recovered. Volume and structure can come much later

5-6 days is too much

spend a fair amount of time on some slabs. it will help you trust your feet A TON. i did about a month of slab climbing when i went home for summer and came back climbing 2 or 3 grades harder because i could stand on stuff that i previously was oblivious to. if possible, do about half and half TR and bouldering and half and half slab and overhung crimpers/jugs

Look into the Rock prodigy method. Also, climb less. Seriously. 5-6 days a week is a recipe for tendonitis. Time to heal is time for muscle growth. Climb 4 days/week max. Hangboard for strength. Learn good technique early on before you get super strong and compensate for bad technique with to much strength. Climb slabs and read "The Self Coached Climber".

Thank you everyone for the replies.

It would seem the general consensus is for me to boulder more and focus more on technique. Indeed, this is definitely something I will be doing. I also will be attempting to tone down how often I go climbing. It's just very difficult for me to not want to climb (if that makes sense.)

I will also be taking a look at the Rock Prodigy method and I have briefly started looking into the "Self Coached Climber" readings.

Again, thank you all for the replies. Any other advice would be great as well.

Gary.Taylor717 wrote:Thank you everyone for the replies. It would seem the general consensus is for me to boulder more and focus more on technique. Indeed, this is definitely something I will be doing. I also will be attempting to tone down how often I go climbing. It's just very difficult for me to not want to climb (if that makes sense.) I will also be taking a look at the Rock Prodigy method and I have briefly started looking into the "Self Coached Climber" readings. Again, thank you all for the replies. Any other advice would be great as well.

Also, read The Rock Warrior's Way.

If you are powering through roofs and steeper stuff you probably need some serious work on your footwork. Sometimes you need power but at 10c and below you can really gain a lot by concentrating on your feet.

I assume you are talking about leading routes at these grades as well (because otherwise who really cares).

I would be more keyed on climbing less (6 days a week...is a lot) and enjoying the routes more. Get outside, gunks, new, red are all close and great.

Personally I don't try to chase grades, just a lot more fun can be had getting out with friends and enjoying the rock.

You need to climb less often and climb more difficult things. The only reason you can get away with 6 days a week is that you're not pushing your limits. The thought of 4 days in a row of training in the gym should be painful. You said that when you were bouldering you had to cut back because your tendons were inflamed. That means you were successfully pushing your limits, BUT as everyone else said, doing that 6 days a week is recipe for disaster.

Heavy structure to your workout probably isn't too important at this point. You ask "how" to boulder.. this seems like it shouldn't be that hard to figure out but anyways. Go into the gym, warm up on a few problems/routes that you know you can do. Next find a problem that you haven't done before. Try to do it. If you get it less the 3 tries then you chose too easy of a problem. Sending it should require you to first figure out each move and then executing the moves should require full exertion. Rinse, repeat for a couple hours or until something starts to hurt. If you get stuck on a problem for too long just move on and try it next session. Boulder twice a week, ARC once, and try hard sport/toprope routes once would be one way to arrange things, but really it doesn't matter too much.

If you're just climbing for fun disregard all of this, go ahead and climb easy stuff 7 days a week. This is the way I approach climbing most of the time and it's super fun but not the fastest way to improve.

So the general consensus I see from everyone is:
Climb less.
Climb harder things.
Boulder more.
Read more.
Learn more technique.
Have fun.
Just climb.

Edit:

This isn't sarcasm either. I didn't mean it to come across as that. Genuinely, I am glad from what everyone has told me.

As for why I climb so much: I just enjoy it. It's kind of similar to why some people spend hours biking, or hiking, or running. It's something I thoroughly enjoy, with friends and others. I do believe, however, I need to learn some self control. I have been finding myself thrashing myself every session as of late, going hard on TRs and such. This is probably because of my competitive nature. Watching someone flawlessly lead a 5.10d and then myself falling off at the crux just makes me want to push myself that much harder I guess. But as everyone said, rest helps too. It's when we grow...

I think the general consensus is TRAIN less, rest more.

I have been watching this thread and hesitating to say so, I kind of suspected it, but you said it yourself.

"I have been finding myself thrashing myself every session"

That is not good. My outlook is by doing so you are only training yourself to thrash and fail more.

This is a common mistake. Trying harder isn't what you need. Systematic progression to harder grades takes slow steady discipline not extra thrash.

Here's what I would do:

Alternate your days (Don't do both the same day):

1- Do lots of mileage on easy climbs. Make it all about smooth controlled comfortable fluid movement and relaxation, not pushing difficulty, no stress physically or mentally whatsoever.

OR

2- Work on increasing difficulty. Here, DO NOT do 25 laps!!! Just walk or jog or whatever you like to get the heart rate up and warm up a little then do a couple easy warm up pitches. Then climb increasingly harder up to a level where you are a little uncomfortable with the difficulty, but can still maintain good climbing form. DO NOT THRASH! Once you start losing form and/or composure BACK OFF! Climb a couple at the level where you can move well. Then stop, just call it a day and end on a positive finish.

I firmly believe that ending a day by thrashing sets you back mentally and in terms of beneficial neuro muscular programming. If you train and flail you are training yourself to flail. End up doing climbs that you succeed on, and sleep on it

A sleep researcher named Dr Maas (and others) has shown that in learning physical skills, adequate sleep is crucial. Sleeping a full night, you go through numerous cycles, and the final cycle is necessary to ingrain physical skills. If you do not complete this cycle your physical learning just doesn't happen. There is more to this and I recommend to everyone to look into Maas work. His story about Sarah Hughes (Olympic gold medalist) features this sleep cycle info.

Finally, don't over train. I have a different current physical challenge and as a result have been researching certain aspects of exercise physiology to death. This comes up again and again. When you over train, you not only exhaust your muscles but also your brain and nervous system. This works against progress. When you feel tired or like you're reaching a plateau, or actually are falling behind, take more days off. The bottom line is for physical progress, both in terms of skill and strength, rest is necessary.

Rest as needed, and rework your mindset from trying so hard that you fail to being successful every day you climb. Let progress happen. It may seem slower at first, but I think you'll see more progress faster.

Thank you mountainhick. Your insight is greatly appreciated, as with everyone else who has posted in this thread. I guess it is just safe to say I have become a bit overzealous in my love for climbing. I just always grew up in the sprot mentality of "go big, go hard or go home." Such were the days of high school and college sports. But I can clearly see and am beginning to understand from the readings people have told me to look at, from your responses, and from the wisdom of other climbers, that training hard isn't what it's all about, nor is it what I need more of.

Clearly, like you all have been saying, I need to just slow down and relax a bit. Focus more on technique. Have fun while climbing. That's what it's all about at the end of the day, isn't it? Am I having fun or am I just beating myself up?

That all being said, thank you for everything you have given me to work with. I will definitely take it all into consideration and keep trying to use all the wisdom you guys have given me. Switching gears a little bit, besides just attempting and practicing routes for leading, what else can I look into for guidance on sport leading in general? I'm talking about readings, videos, things to practice (not climbing wise, I mean along the lines of "this is how you avoid back clipping. This is how to properly set a quick-draw, etc) stuff I can do in the house, on the go, or in my spare time?

The "School of Rock" on MP is pretty good.
How to Rock Climb, by John Long
Freedom of the Hills
Youtube (be careful, only watch videos put up by sources like Backcountry or the like, no randoms)

Mastering Basic Skills - sounds like this would be the best place to start for you
amazon.com/Rock-Climbing-Ma…

Thank you ceasar.salad. I actually have started taking a look at a few of these books, sites, and articles. I recently, actually, was just given a copy of Freedom of the Hills to borrow. I'll be reading it soon.

And thank you David. It is hard to try and tell myself not to go to the crag or to the gym. Sports all through school and such always told me to go 5-6 days a week (you know, practice right after class, for two hours, then game days on the weekends for 2 hours or a tournament and what have you) so NOT doing anything IS hard and scary. But you're right that I need to slow down and look at the big picture. But also, as stated, it's hard.

Thank you all for the information thus far, I will be taking it all to heart and using it!

So going against the grain, Steve Bechtel has an interesting post about using a 4 days on/1 off/ 4 on/ 2 off training cycle. See post 414 Redpoint Plan at climbstrong.com. Steve also has a facebook page - climbstrong and welcomes questions. facebook.com/climbstrong?fr…

The key with high frequency sessions is the volume. Since you climb more days each day has less time (1 hour). The intensity varies as well across days from easy to hard.

I have been experimenting with a 4-5 day schedule and my days are scheduled like this. When I move into full-blown red-point mode this is a little different.
Sat- long outdoor day/ projects (hard)
Sun - 1/2 day outdoor day / alternating project #2 or volume (Med day)
Mon- some arcing - 15 min and lifting-45 min (easy day)
Wed- either projects or bouldering/power drills (hard day)- 90 min
Thursday- movement skills or arcing - 30min and lifting -45 min(easy)

When I move into redpoint mode this schedule is a little different. (Notes- weekend warrior/full-time job, 46 yo, climbing for 18yrs, mainly a sport climber. YMMV)
Edit- kudos to mountainhick- Two years ago, I decided to stop the madness and I never climb thrashed anymore. When I get tired, or lose coordination, I go home or get on easier stuff. Climbing thrashed is a good way to pattern in bad movements or get injured.....

No one's said this explicitly yet, so: think about your climbing time as practice, not training. Steve Bechtel (who I think is friggin' great) is very insistent that climbing is a skill sport, so the most important factor in getting better is increasing your skill (technique). Good ideas on how to do this have already been offered, but basically it means climb a lot of varied stuff, watch other good climbers to see what they do (body positions, etc.), and don't climb yourself into the ground.

Have fun!