Momentum Climbing Accident - Utah
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I know there was an accident at Momentum (Sandy, UT) the other day and they transported a climber to IMC with a shattered leg or similar injury. Does anyone know the details of the accident and if the climber is going to recover okay? |
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I heard from someone on staff that the climber was on a top rope wall and failed to tie her figure 8 knot. She leaned back from the top and fell. |
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It is the belayer's duty to double check the knot too. Usually you can tell with a quick glance, but do what you have to do to make sure. |
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M Sprague wrote:It is the belayer's duty to double check the knot too.It's the responsibility of the climber to check their knot. They're the one that's going to be hurt or killed if it's not tied properly. It's a good idea for the belayer to check the climber's knot, but certainly not a responsibility. |
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It is everyone's responsibility in the 'group'or partnership to make sure every person is safe. No one with whom i climb, especially my regular partner, will even think of starting a climb unless they have been dble checked... |
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zenetopia wrote:It is everyone's responsibility in the 'group' or partnership to make sure every person is safe. No one with whom i climb, especially my regular partner, will even think of starting a climb unless they have been dble checked...It's unfortunate that you and your partners can't trust themselves to look at their own knot and know if it's tried properly. Whatever happened to personal responsibility? Why is it so lacking these days? If I fail to tie my knot properly and deck, it's 100% on me. I wouldn't even consider that to be anyone else's responsibility. It wouldn't even cross my mind. zenetopia wrote:It is everyone's responsibility in the 'group'..So if you're climbing in a party of three, you have both people standing on the ground check your knot before you climb? Really? |
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Marc H wrote: It's the responsibility of the climber to check their knot. They're the one that's going to be hurt or killed if it's not tied properly. It's a good idea for the belayer to check the climber's knot, but certainly not a responsibility.Disagree. As a belayer, my partner's safety is pretty much in my hands. It should be the belayer's responsibility and not just "a good idea". Should be a habit. youtube.com/watch?v=JoqDYcC… |
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"t's unfortunate that you and your partners can't trust themselves to look at their own knot and know if it's tried properly. |
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I agree with Marc H, although I'm not strident about it and if someone wants me to check their knot, no problem. |
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As well, if you deck it isn't just 100% on you. Imagine what watching something like that does to your partner and/or belayer...Not making sure everyone you are climbing with is as safe as possible is just irresponsible & a selfish attitude brought on by senseless ego. |
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"Thou shalt check thy knot three times, then untie the knot and tie it again to ensure it has been properly tied," dictates the holy office of the Redundant Department of Redundancy. "Once the knot is retied, check it thrice more ... Repeat until there's no time left to climb and you may thank these safe habits for keeping you safe." |
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I think there is a mutual agreement that climbers climbing together watch out for each other, so a small error or lapse doesn't turn into a life -changing event. Not just with checking a knot, but with z-clipping, rope behind the leg, climbing in a dangerous situation over a ledge etc. |
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pfwein, good job on coming up with that nemonic. I'be been using CBBLAK for |
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Marc H wrote: It's unfortunate that you and your partners can't trust themselves to look at their own knot and know if it's tried properly. Whatever happened to personal responsibility? Why is it so lacking these days? If I fail to tie my knot properly and deck, it's 100% on me. I wouldn't even consider that to be anyone else's responsibility. It wouldn't even cross my mind. So if you're climbing in a party of three, you have both people standing on the ground check your knot before you climb? Really?Double checking each other for safety reasons is neither an abdication of personal responsibility nor an indication of a lack of self-trust. When climbing with a partner you are 'part' of a team, and the success of your venture one way or another depends on being part of that team. It's a group responsibility to ensure that the team is safe and successful - individual personal responsibility is inherently part and parcel, the prerequisite, of team responsibility. Your comment about a party of three is silly at best; a poor argument to help prove your point. Any high performance team, whether there are 2 members or more, has to work together and watch out for each other - that is a necessary dynamic to their venture, whether that be climbing or something else. I'm curious Marc, do you not double check your partner's safety system when you're out climbing because you simply expect them to be responsible? Accidents and oversights occur to the best of us, to err is human. Stack the odds in your favor and in the favor of those loved ones you climb with. |
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Brian in SLC wrote: Disagree. As a belayer, my partner's safety is pretty much in my hands. It should be the belayer's responsibility and not just "a good idea". Should be a habit. youtube.com/watch?v=JoqDYcC…Well said. |
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Unfortunately, I saw the fall on Tuesday; it was horrifying. Fortunately, the woman landed on her legs, which were undoubtedly severely injured, and thus hopefully avoided any spinal injuries. When she fell, no belayer was in the area, which made the entire incident seem that much more bizarre. The following is hearsay but it fits the facts: apparently the belayer became aware that the climber's knot had become undone and went to get help. |
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BruceH wrote:Unfortunately, I saw the fall on Tuesday; it was horrifying. Fortunately, the woman landed on her legs, which were undoubtedly severely injured, and thus hopefully avoided any spinal injuries. When she fell, no belayer was in the area, which made the entire incident seem that much more bizarre. The following is hearsay but it fits the facts: apparently the belayer became aware that the climber's knot had become undone and went to get help. All those involved in this accident were deeply shaken and my thoughts are with them. Thinking under stress is not easy for everyone, and it certainly does not come naturally to me. Which (I will venture the editorial) is why it is so important to practice unusual scenarios and to observe usual protocol. Heretofore, I have been rather casual about checking partners' knots in the gym. After seeing that fall, I will now ALWAYS check those knots as if my own life depended on them. Redunancy is not an abnegation of personal responsibility but rather it is plain old good engineering and common sense.Spot on. Thanks for the info on the accident. |
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zenetopia wrote:Well, good thing you and i will never climb together.A good thing for me or you? Hahah pfwein wrote:I'm not strident about it and if someone wants me to check their knot, no problem.I'm in your boat. If someone wants to check my knot, I'm happy to oblige. I'm someone wants me to check their knot, I'm also happy to oblige. zenetopia wrote:Not making sure everyone you are climbing with is as safe as possible is just irresponsible & a selfish attitude brought on by senseless ego.You are assuming you understand my motivations, and you are wrong. I believe that a climber that assumes it is his belayers' responsibility to check his knot leads to complacency. Complacency can kill, injure and maim. Ego is involved none whatsoever in that line of thinking. Mark Lewis wrote:Your comment about a party of three is silly at best; a poor argument to help prove your point. zenetopia wrote:It is everyone's responsibility in the 'group'or partnership to make sure every person is safe.In the context of this conversation, I interpreted Zene's comments as meaning that all members of his group check knots and systems before anyone leaves the ground. I don't think that's silly. I was simply clarifying. Mark Lewis wrote:I'm curious Marc, do you not double check your partner's safety system when you're out climbing because you simply expect them to be responsible? Accidents and oversights occur to the best of us, to err is human.I tend to mostly climb with competent people--that are also human and prone to occasionally making mistakes. When it's prudent, I double check systems. When I'm in shape at the gym, I tend to climb dozens of routes in an evening. I do not double check my partners' systems at every climb. But I double check my systems every time. Case in point: a couple days ago I was climbing with a good friend of mine and chatting with his fiance who was standing next to me. I threaded my Grigri incorrectly. But before he left the ground, I followed the climber's end of the rope (as I always do) expecting it to lead to my climber. But instead it led to the pile of rope on the ground. My partner didn't know what was wrong, but he could tell that I wasn't ready, probably by the confused look on my face. I fixed the problem while making sure he wasn't yet climbing. I then looked at him in the eye to indicate that I was now ready to belay him. He smiled and started to climb. It all worked out because I had a sense of personal responsibility to make sure that I had my system connected properly. To me, it's much more important that my personal safety system is correct--whether I'm the climber or the belayer. I expect that my partners do the same thing. It's less important that I double check my partners' systems. If you are an experienced climbed and can't look at a knot and tell if it's tied correctly, or look at a belay device and tell if it's rigged correctly, then climbing is not for you. If you are new to climbing or new to me, then I am more likely to double check your systems. BruceH wrote:apparently the belayer became aware that the climber's knot had become undone and went to get help.Went to get help??? If you're the belayer, you are the help! If you notice as your climber is climbing, that her knot is untied, then it's your job to speak up. You tell your climber not to climb any higher and not to weight the rope! Down climbing on the biggest most positive holds or tying in short to the nearest 'draw is by far the safest thing she could do. I have a hard time picturing a (competent) belayer doing this. I really hope your account is inaccurate. BruceH wrote:When she fell, no belayer was in the area..apparently the belayer became aware that the climber's knot had become undone and went to get help. Mark Lewis wrote:Spot on. Thanks for the info on the accident.Wow. You question me about my comments and simply accept this account--without question--as if it's not totally insane!? Bruce implied that the victim's belayer disconnected his belay device (while she was still climbing), and abandoned his climber "to go get help!" That doesn't strike you at all? I'm truly amazed, Mark. |
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pfwein wrote:B - belayer got me on? R - rope (knot) propery attached? A - A is tough, "anchor" is the best I can do so far, maybe N/A H - harness on properly?I would go with A for Attitude, which is something a brah needs plenty of (and usually has in abundance) before leaving the ground. |
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It's nice if my belayer checks my knots, buckles, etc. I certainly watch out for the climber's safety when belaying. |
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Bruce said, 'After seeing that fall, I will now ALWAYS check those knots as if my own life depended on them. Redunancy is not an abnegation of personal responsibility but rather it is plain old good engineering and common sense.' |