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Momentum Climbing Accident - Utah
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By matt davies
Feb 1, 2013

The figure eight is a bulky, inefficient, rope hog of a knot. It is also the sign for infinity. Is it knot one of the ironies of the universe that if you don't finish infinity, you risk an imminent meeting with the afore mentioned?


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By Mark Lewis
From Salt Lake City, Utah
Feb 1, 2013

matt davies wrote:
The figure eight is a bulky, inefficient, rope hog of a knot. It is also the sign for infinity. Is it knot one of the ironies of the universe that if you don't finish infinity, you risk an imminent meeting with the afore mentioned?


Nice, clever touch of humor to the conversation!


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By zenetopia
Feb 1, 2013

Marc H:

"A good thing for me or you? Hahah"

A good thing for you, of course. Because Dble checking your partner's knot takes so long & is such a hassle, I'd waste all day doing it...you wouldn't have enough time for one pitch!


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By matt davies
Feb 1, 2013

Mark Lewis wrote:
Nice, clever touch of humor to the conversation!

I think it's my responsibility to save the safety sage from the salve of slaves.


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By RockyMtnTed
Feb 1, 2013

Marc you are totally missing the point and I would never climb with someone as dense as you are.

Mistakes happen, its part of being human. Like everyone is saying its not that I don't want to be responsible for myself but humans make mistakes so having a double check system in place when the consequence are death is generally worth it. Especially when it takes two seconds...

Its the same reason doctors double check with everyone in the OR before they start a surgery that they are doing it on the right body part. Its not that doctors aren't responsible its that everyone makes mistakes so you double check stuff. Don't pilots and co pilots have a double checked flight sheet before they take off? They must just be lazy and not want to accept personal responsibility... hahaha

There are several very famous experienced climbers who have decked from not tieing their knots correctly. Do you think they are just noobs or dont care about personal responsibility?? No its probably that they have tied in THOUSANDS of times and you are bound to forget one of those times... and the consequence is usually death.

So why not do a simple double check with your partner that literally takes one second? I agree I become a little more laid back about it in the gym when I am climbing thirty routes a night but I at least always give my partners knot a quick look.


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By matt davies
Feb 2, 2013

RockyMtnTed wrote:
Marc you are totally missing the point and I would never climb with someone as dense as you are. Mistakes happen, its part of being human. Like everyone is saying its not that I don't want to be responsible for myself but humans make mistakes so having a double check system in place when the consequence are death is generally worth it. Especially when it takes two seconds... Its the same reason doctors double check with everyone in the OR before they start a surgery that they are doing it on the right body part. Its not that doctors aren't responsible its that everyone makes mistakes so you double check stuff. Don't pilots and co pilots have a double checked flight sheet before they take off? They must just be lazy and not want to accept personal responsibility... hahaha There are several very famous experienced climbers who have decked from not tieing their knots correctly. Do you think they are just noobs or dont care about personal responsibility?? No its probably that they have tied in THOUSANDS of times and you are bound to forget one of those times... and the consequence is usually death. So why not do a simple double check with your partner that literally takes one second? I agree I become a little more laid back about it in the gym when I am climbing thirty routes a night but I at least always give my partners knot a quick look.

I've vacillated between strict debate-type point deduction and pure ass-hole verisimilitude on this one. Ted- HOLY SHIT! You start with an ad-hominem, then proceed with a non-sequitur, culminated by an admission that negates your previous premises? Poor argument, at best.


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By Mark E Dixon
From Sprezzatura, Someday
Feb 2, 2013
Sure, I can belay

RockyMtnTed wrote:
There are several very famous experienced climbers who have decked from not tieing their knots correctly. Do you think they are just noobs or dont care about personal responsibility?? No its probably that they have tied in THOUSANDS of times and you are bound to forget one of those times... and the consequence is usually death.


Well, statistically, most of the folks who tie in thousands of times DON'T eventually forget and plunge to the ground. And if the recent events are representative, the consequence is broken legs rather than death.

I don't think it needs to be a big production, but it is pretty easy to keep an eye on your partners tie in or belay practice. Sort of an easy way to mitigate some risk.


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By Alex Washburne
Feb 2, 2013
I eat crack for breakfast.

Mountainproject has a knack for the absurd... and I have a bad habit of taking the bait.

Before we continue throwing beef about who's not climbing with who, I propose we all wish this poor girl well.

Once we've wished this poor girl well, I propose that we all wish something like this could never happen again. It almost surely will, but let's hope that it takes longer to happen again, and that it happens again but of little consequence to the person's health and well being...

And, finally, let's just do everything we can to keep this tragic mistake from happening again and again and again... I'll take responsibility to check all the knots around me not because I'm afraid of being blamed but because I want to do everything in my power to prevent people from getting hurt, even if they hurl beef on mountainproject.

I love you all, and hope this avoidable accident doesn't happen to any of us.


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By RocksClimbing
Feb 2, 2013

matt davies wrote:
I've vacillated between strict debate-type point deduction and pure ass-hole verisimilitude on this one. Ted- HOLY SHIT! You start with an ad-hominem, then proceed with a non-sequitur, culminated by an admission that negates your previous premises? Poor argument, at best.


hahaha oh god, please tell me you talk like that in real life too!? Are you writing a thesis paper or posting on an internet forum...

Love people who use big words in an effort to sound smart!

Also there was no "admission that negates your previous premise". The post clearly said he becomes more laid back in the gym but still always gives the knot a quick look... All those big words from thesaurus.com and ya still sound like a dumbass!

edit: I looked at your other posts... apparently you always talk like an uppity douche!


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By Christian
From Casa do Cacete
Feb 2, 2013

Overheard at North Shore surf spot:

"You want some beef?"

"No thanks, I already had lunch."

If I'm climbing with a beginner, I'll carefully check their knot. If with experienced people, I'll ask "You got a good knot?" and glance at it. I don't get all up in their space, lifting up the knot and making sure it's through the leg loop, a quick glance should tell me it's well-tied and at least through the waist loop and nobody is gonna die.

If they happen to not be facing me or even be climbing already, then I trust them to check it themselves based on my verbal prompt, I'm not gonna make them stop and come back down.

There's a happy medium somewhere between being completely uncaring and having what Arthur Miller called a "pathological sense of responsibility."


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By matt davies
Feb 2, 2013

RocksClimbing wrote:
hahaha oh god, please tell me you talk like that in real life too!? Are you writing a thesis paper or posting on an internet forum... Love people who use big words in an effort to sound smart! Also there was no "admission that negates your previous premise". The post clearly said he becomes more laid back in the gym but still always gives the knot a quick look... All those big words from thesaurus.com and ya still sound like a dumbass! edit: I looked at your other posts... apparently you always talk like an uppity douche!

Sweet! I can't help it, I was raised by a Rolls-Royce Speak and Spell. As regards Mr. Ted's argument, it does no favor to its persuasiveness to exemplify observations made under physical duress to bolster a screed about the essence of human fallibility.
I concede that it is not a negation, rather just a weak point. And I will further concede that my presentation of criticism of Mr. Ted's post using debate formality as a cursory template was a poor attempt at satire of an on-line row about climbing that has clearly devolved into the absurd. Not my best work. Thank you for taking my post seriously enough to register and call me a douche under a devilishly clever phony name. Also, thank you for taking the time to peruse my library of overtly pretentious remarks.
Welcome to Mountain Project!
EDIT: Douche toolery is my speciality, and you should really conjure a more varied lexicon of insults to affront me with.


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By Marc H
From Lafayette, CO
Feb 2, 2013
The Cathedral Spires in RMNP, left to right: Stiletto, Sharkstooth, Forbidden Tower, Petit Grepon, The Saber, The Foil, The Moon & The Jackknife.

Jon Zucco wrote:
Absolutely, there is certainly a difference between legal responsibility and personal responsibility (and with 'personal responsibility', I would go as far as to lump checking a partner's setup in there because they are your partner). I just cringe when I read some of the comments that apparently express nonchalant approaches to belaying. But for the most part, this is probably just a matter of arguing semantics. I think we are generally on the same page about this.


I think you are mostly correct regarding the disconnect. I was not talking at any point about "legal" responsibility, but I still disagree that a belayer has a "responsibility" to check their climbers' knots. I think it's a good idea, but I certainly don't think a belayer is responsible to check his climbers' knots at every climb, pitch, etc.

What I take issue with is people like Sprague, Zenetopia, and Mark Lewis saying that when someone forgets to finish his/her knot and subsequently decks, the belayer is just as responsible for the climber's broken bones as the climber themselves. I'm terribly sorry this poor girl got hurt, but if she did in fact neglect to finish her knot, she and she alone is responsible for her injuries. That being said, I do hope she recovers as quickly as possible.

Mark Lewis wrote:
That is the section of his post I'm referring to as spot on Marc, not the belayer leaving his partner in the aforementioned situation.


Well, when you quote his entire post--and say, "Thanks for the account"--it makes sense I'm going to think you're responding to his entire post, including his account. Especially considering you actually thanked him for the account. I find it amazing that you question my comments about complacency but just accept Bruce's mildly insane account without question. I'm truly astounded. And also slightly appalled.

zentopia wrote:
A good thing for you, of course. Because Dble checking your partner's knot takes so long & is such a hassle, I'd waste all day doing it...you wouldn't have enough time for one pitch!


I never said a thing about how long it takes to check knots. Not a single thing. I talked about how assuming your belayer is responsible for checking your knot can lead to complacency. Are we in the same conversation? Do you understand what complacency means? Once again you assumed you understand my motivations for doing things and once again you are wrong. If you try reading what I wrote and take a second to try to understand it, this might be a little easier for both of us.

I believe you meant to direct your comment at this gentleman..

D-storm wrote:
"Thou shalt check thy knot three times, then untie the knot and tie it again to ensure it has been properly tied," dictates the holy office of the Redundant Department of Redundancy. "Once the knot is retied, check it thrice more ... Repeat until there's no time left to climb and you may thank these safe habits for keeping you safe."


Which I think is quite clever, actually.

RockheadedTed wrote:
Marc you are totally missing the point and I would never climb with someone as dense as you are.


Awww shucks! And I just opened up my computer to send you a PM about climbing this weekend. Damn. I'm not sure if the rest of your post had any good points because I still haven't stopped laughing about your opening line. Maybe I'll get there one day. But probably not. :-)

I love how all the people that aren't capable of seeing the big picture tell me they'll never climb with me like it's my loss. That's super cute.

It's not me that's missing the point here, Teddy boy.

Climb safe everyone.


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By John Ross
From Wasatch Front, UT
Feb 2, 2013
FA of <a href='/v/gunner/106128521'>Gunner</a>, AF Cyn.

Some gyms teach top-ropers something called a "sit test." After they are both tied in and ready to go they take slack and "sit" to double-check the climber and the belayer. Although this is taught and encouraged I don't think it is enforced.


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By RocksClimbing
Feb 2, 2013

matt davies wrote:
It does no favor to its persuasiveness to exemplify observations made under physical duress to bolster a screed about the essence of human fallibility. I concede that it is not a negation. I will further concede that my presentation of criticism of Mr. Ted's post using debate formality as a cursory template was a poor attempt at satire of an on-line row about climbing that has clearly devolved into the absurd...under a devilishly clever phony name... thank you for taking the time to peruse my library of overtly pretentious remarks. you should really conjure a more varied lexicon of insults to affront me with.


Hooooo. Lee. Shit.

Why do you talk like that? Haha that is beyond rediculous... Do you even hear yourself? This is an informal online discussion board... Who are you trying to impress?


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By Jon Zucco
From Denver, CO
Feb 2, 2013
yaak crack Red Rock Canyon, NV

RocksClimbing wrote:
beyond rediculous...


...yet mildly rifreshing.


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By Nielsonru
Feb 2, 2013

Every single time I climb, regardless of who I am with, or how many lines we have done.

"your through both, check"
"knot looks correct, check"
"I am through my belay device correctly, check"
"Biner is locked, check"
etc, etc.


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By James Arnold
From Chattanooga
Feb 2, 2013
Chew toyed

It is the belayer's duty to double check the knot too. Usually you can tell with a quick glance, but do what you have to do to make sure.

These kinds of accidents are pretty inexcusable. That being said, I did not notice that my climber was only tied through their leg loop once at a gym and they flipped over when they fell. Not good and I was rightfully mortified.


Yeah, no more of these. We almost lost Lynn Hill and John Long. Be careful out there, folks.


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By RocksClimbing
Feb 2, 2013

Jon Zucco wrote:
...yet mildly rifreshing.


Maybe in a graduate level english paper... but when youre discussing in an online forum wether or not the belayer double checks the knot, well that just makes you sound like a pretentious fool.


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By Christian
From Casa do Cacete
Feb 2, 2013

RocksClimbing wrote:
Maybe in a graduate level english paper... but when youre discussing in an online forum wether or not the belayer double checks the knot, well that just makes you sound like a pretentious fool.


Sarcasm meter off a bit?


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By matt davies
Feb 2, 2013

RocksClimbing wrote:
... you sound like a pretentious fool.

I am not made of stone, sir. When cut, I bleed as blue as anyone, and you have cut me, sir, and I have bled.
Your words, common as they are, have caused me to plumb the deepest depths of my well-worn copy of Roget's, and yet I have no multi-syllabic word that can adequately express the chagrin I registered at the realization that my verbal grandiosity had rendered me a tool, a douche, and a pretentious fool in the eyes of an esteemed anonymous poster on a climbing website. While not entirely unexpected, to see it in poorly formed incomplete sentences with rampant misspellings of common words in a forum about the moral implications of climbing knot inspection really illuminated the folly of my undertaking.
Henceforth, I pledge to reduce my syllable limit to two, and I shall cavalierly ignore the pleading entreaties of the built-in spell check to properly arrange the letters in my words to represent actual English sentiments. I shall adopt the language proper to a climbing forum and scatter commas with no regard to the thoughts they are separating, and I shall use it's when I really mean its, as apostrophes will cease to matter to denote possession v. plurality, or whatever the hell they do. These things I will do reluctantly and at great personal cost, but I shall do them nonetheless for I see now colloquial renditions of the word "rappel", as repelling as I might find them, are more appropriate for this venue.
Thank you for illustrating the error of my most pretentious ways, and for instilling in me the proper disrespect of language that this forum warrants, nay, demands. I shall conclude this writ of contrition with an emblem common to these communiques, which I am informed conveys both empathy and mirth. ;)


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By Brassmonkey
Feb 2, 2013
Brass monkey

matt davies wrote:
These things I will do reluctantly and at great personal cost, but I shall do them nonetheless for I see now colloquial renditions of the word "rappel", as repelling as I might find them, are more appropriate for this venue.


Check your grammar ;)


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By matt davies
Feb 2, 2013

Brassmonkey wrote:
Check your grammar ;)

Im tri-ing, its going 2 take a wyle 4 me 2 wurk ths out. Bra


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By Davis Stevenson
From Flagstaff, Arizona
Feb 2, 2013
Following up a new route out in the Mojave Desert.  Info coming soon maybe?  Fun 5.10 hands and fingers.

pfwein wrote:
B - belayer got me on? R - rope (knot) propery attached? A - A is tough, "anchor" is the best I can do so far, maybe N/A H - harness on properly?


I think we need to reserve BRAH for the bouldering safety check.

B- Beanie on
R- Remove shirt
A- Are you spotting me?
(H)-(Hand me that PBR)


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By matt davies
Feb 2, 2013

RocksClimbing wrote:
Who are you trying to impress?

In descending order of importance: chicks, Thurston Howell III, people on the internet, Mrs. White (my third grade English teacher), the editors at Roget's, Barack Obama


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By paintrain
Feb 2, 2013
Chuck Norris can Divide by Zero

As well written as some of these posts are and as obtuse as the intellectual hyperbole has become, I find the fact there are arguments about this fairly nauseating. What happened to what used to be "the brotherhood of the rope?"

Climbing alone is called soloing for a reason. You generally climb roped as a team - though apparently gym climbing is different. I think it is you and your partners responsibility to look after each other when climbing. Even in the gym.

Its a dangerous game and redundancy in safety should be taught at all levels. You can blow it off in the guise of "watch out for yourself" personal responsibility, but that certainly doesn't make you much of a climbing partner and only a belay monkey at best.

Based on the number of accidents lately, being a little less complacent and taking a little bigger view on the responsibility of a safe system that you are supposed to be a part of seems pretty unassailable. After all, you as the belayer "not responsible" for your partner's knot can't complain if they would use you as a crash pad from 60 feet up. Since you failed to take responsibility to get out of the path of their fall when they were soloing. You weren't serving any useful purpose anyhow since you failed to notice they were soloing (I can't wait for the pretentious BS around that remark).

People will make mistakes. Be a climbing PARTNER. Two people checking each other systems will make fewer. Be safer. It easy to get complacent.

Pt


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