I say niether -

Just on-sight solo it. That is after all the purest, most rewarding, and mentally strong type of climbing there is.

Well, let’s see. How many of you were put on the sharp end for your very first climb? Second climb? Third climb? C’mon kids, let’s see some hands. For those of you who did, I sure as hell wouldn’t have wanted to be your second.

I’ve never been to Devil’s Lake, but it sounds like leading is pretty tricky there. No problem. Just change the local ethic. A well-placed bolt here and there, a few choice words and dirty looks directed towards those pesky top-ropers, and Devil’s Lake belongs to the hard-men as it rightfully should!

BTW, if you have early-onset Alzheimer's (well, maybe not so early...), does it count as an onsight if you can't remember ever doing the climb?

With the proper brand of tequila, yeah, it's an onsight. If cookies are tossed, then it's a proud send.

This thread is the most beaten dead dog around. Stop complaining, stop whining, and if you don't like the topropers at DL DON'T GO!

If you want to do something constructive start acting like adults, get organized! Start a grassroots action committee. Be mature and methodical.

Mature and methodical!?!? Ohmigosh, that is SOOOO anti-climbing!

No, it is and SMART and WISE.

Very interesting survey results, I wonder what they would be now, probably similar in terms of how many people lead (at least from what I saw in 2004 when I was climbing there).

Also, very well said about living life and appreciating and accepting people's goals and dreams for what they are!! I think we often forget that we all have different things that make us tick!

I say just go boulder at the lake and save yourself the headache of deciding.

having a bit of a slow day around here... writing for the sake of writing...


personally, when i first moved to the chicago area i maintained my strict ground up way of doing things for several years. i went to the lake allot, and my regular partner and i did everything we wanted to do onsite, ground up, walked back around to the base and did another one.

this wasn't so much of an ethical or stylistic decision, but a training decision. i've always kind of thought of the lake as a training ground, not an end in itself. lead a whole lot at the lake, and quite simply everything seamed easier when we'd make the road trip to rmnp, lumpy and eldo etc.

these days, i just can't keep up my enthusiasm for it at the lake. i've lead all the routes i'm psyched to lead, and the ground just always seams to close out there. nowadays i still head out west and lead at the grades i'm interested in leading. so i just go to the lake to have fun, throw up some toperopes and pull down for awhile. i still lead 4-5 times a year when it sounds like more fun to clip gear than hike around the top, but for 90% of the time just climbin and running laps without bothering with the leading is fun enough and generally results in more time on the rock and less time sorting gear, coiling ropes or messing around.

Jay, I think that I prefer to lead, but climbing is climbing and there is nothing wrong with toproping. I find that when I am at the lake I get much more climbing in if I TR. Why can't we call it a onsight if someone climbs a route on TR? Or does onsight have to do with nailing the gear the first time. It ismy impression that onsight has to do with the movement over rock, not the means by which it happened. Correct me if I'm wrong, top ropers usually have more fun too.

Jay, I think that I prefer to lead, but climbing is climbing and there is nothing wrong with toproping. I find that when I am at the lake I get much more climbing in if I TR. Why can't we call it a onsight if someone climbs a route on TR? Or does onsight have to do with nailing the gear the first time. It ismy impression that onsight has to do with the movement over rock, not the means by which it happened. Correct me if I'm wrong, top ropers usually have more fun too.

placing the gear is certainly an integral part of on onsite.

when your toproping, your just climbing, which is hella fun, but if ya wanna pad the resume, its gotta be on lead.

Train and learn on TR and measure that on lead. Save the ones you really want to onsight for onsights. If it has good gear lead it even if you have to dog between a few bolts. I once into the trap of not getting on things until I was in shape because I want to onsight everything. Now I just get on everything, I take whippers, I "take" and I work out moves. In the end I am a stronger better climber for it. Still I never say I have done a route until I lead it. Not in the gunks or at the Lake.

I started out TRing because I had no experience, no one to teach me and a book. Gear is expensive, so leading was out of reach for the first season. My rack has grown and now I have started to lead more. I toprope the hard climbs right now, 5.10a and up because that is at my level right now. I lead most everything below that level. I might TR it first to learn sequence or placement, and then lead.

I feel the lake naturally lends itself to headpointing climbs vs. a ground-up fashion due to the trickery of the gear. Many of the leads are extremely proud sends and I've had feelings of accomplishements with each of the leads I've accomplished.

In regards to climbing I feel onsight leading is the purest ethic, but comes with the highest degree of commitment. With TR, I feel a climber will never actualize their full potential till they've challenged their mind and body. Leading often is more of a mental challenge than a physical one. Till you've trained your mind with leading, you'll always climb below your potential.

When I'm at the lake I usually do a majority of TR on climbs I've lead, and TR the next climb I plan on leading. This allows me multiple climbs for training purposes and the enjoyement of planning/doing my next hard send.

Oh god, made the wrong click and here I was... And after reading through the more recent posts, and pondering a bit on the whole subject here are a few of my thoughts.

First, visiting climbers will often (but not always) get the wrong impression of the lake. That impression being the one of a bunch of punters who can't even set up a top rope anchor correctly, let alone lead anything there. It is a shame, but at the same time it is the Midwest, which, because of the nature of the crags, top roping is easily accessible, and leading is not necessary to get to the anchors or the top. What can you do about that?

Second, after running around the block enough, I have met great climbers (umm, great people rather, that are just out to have some fun and don't want to put their lives on the line to do so). You could call them wantabes, cowards, whatever, but the bottom line is that climbing appeals to all sorts of folks. Those who want the adrenaline curdling in their throats, and those who want to take the kids out for a more adventurous day than going to the mall. But, as climbers, our egos are relentlessly out of control because of the gifts we get from pushing ourselves into the realm of the unknown; that is, unknown mental and physical possibilities. If someone wants it, they will seek it out. Why do we have to bash on those who just want to kick it and enjoy the outdoors the way they want to?

Thirdly, the Lake obviously has a very rich history of cutting edge leads. To all those visitors who don't know this, or get to experience the real deal, well, better luck next time. The Lake's history could fill a very thick book and I look forward to that book being written someday, but to dismiss the lake as a top rope destination is more likely due to problems in your own mind, and not the climbing environment there. How cool and motivating is it to see someone crank out runout 5.11 next to a 5.6 toproper!? What motivates people more than to see what is possible?

For the fourth and final note, like many backwoods areas around the states, people have a tendency to say that "if you can lead 5.? at the Lake, you can lead it anywhere". I think this is true because of the nature of the protection here, but not because of the style or movement of the terrain. What Devils Lake offers the seasoned or budding leader is the opportunity to push themselves into an arena of very mental climbing, an arena where "take" is not always an option. It is for this reason that the Lake will always feel like home, and I am forever grateful to the folks who took me under their unruly wings, and showed me that my climbing could be whatever I want it to be. I for one, certainly wish I could have the DL crew I knew, and still know, with me at every crag I climb at today. JJ

Jeremy:

FIVE STAR POST!!

I am a new climber - climbed outdoors always with a lead and gym climbed a bunch but don't have a lead climber handy and would like to get some time in outdoors before the weather changes. I just learned how to anchor and top rope - wanting to go to devils lake for a few good climbs this weekend - I am very unfamiliar with the area - would love to hear of any good routes for newer climbers that are not a tough anchor - something we can hike up and rappel down to do some TR for the day with a few friends...any suggestions???
Thanks!
Cori