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By Dave Cummings
From Grand Junction, CO
Nov 13, 2012
me on my redpoint
metoliusclimbing.com/ultimate_...

This PAS type daisy has been out for a little while. I am wondering if anyone has used it wall climbing and what you think?

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By Peter Stokes
From Them Thar Hills
Nov 13, 2012
Wall Street, Moab, UT
Haven't used it wall climbing, but I have used it on single pitch stuff in place of my usual daisy chain, and found pros and cons- on the plus side it racks in a smaller space, doesn't hang down in the way of other stuff on my harness, and the stitching is stronger than a daisy chain. The main drawback was the extra time fumbling around with it to get the right loop/length for what I was hooking into (if not racked at full length), and putting it back on the harness in a compact way. For me, a daisy chain is faster and easier to use and though it's not as strong as the PAS it's safe enough if (1) it's replaced when it wears out (like anything else), and (2) the middle loops get their own carabiner (in other words don't use the end biner to hook the middle loops, like you might with a PAS). This is personal preference, though- there are probably people here who are way faster than I am at dealing with a PAS.

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By 20 kN
From Hawaii
Nov 13, 2012
Dave Cummings wrote:
metoliusclimbing.com/ultimate_... This PAS type daisy has been out for a little while. I am wondering if anyone has used it wall climbing and what you think?

It's pretty stiff and it is almost pure Dyneema. Dont take a fall on it!

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By bearbreeder
Nov 13, 2012
i have a PAS and likely wont buy another one .. its not useless or "unsafe" ... but i can simply buy a nylon sling for less than 10$, tie a few overhands in it and girth hitch it to my harness ... and itll do the same thing for 1/3 the price ...

when beginners ask me about PASes .... i just tell em to buy a nylon sling ...

as to these PAS style "ultimates" for anchors .... IMO a total waste of moola ... just buy a sling for 1/4 the cost and learn how to tie a fig 8/9 ... its simply a ways to part yuppies from their wallet ... same with "pretied" prussiks that cost 20$ ... etc ...

ive been noticing more products that substitute for actual skills lately ...

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By ParkerKempf
From atlanta, GA
Nov 13, 2012
sweet belay on El Cap Spire, Salathe Wall El Capitan
bearbreader, you better tread lightly!
all the kno knots in knylon knotzis are gonna come after you.....


yer all gonna die

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By Rob Warden, Space Lizard
From Springdale Ut
Nov 14, 2012
blah
Watch the dmm drop test video nylon sling with overhand knot explodes apart. Merely anecdotal evidence, not a criticism of anyone. That being said...tie in with the rope or use a purcell prussic.(forgive my spelling)

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By Reginald McChufferton
Nov 14, 2012
Rob Warden wrote:
Watch the dmm drop test video nylon sling with overhand knot explodes apart. Merely anecdotal evidence, not a criticism of anyone. That being said...tie in with the rope or use a purcell prussic.(forgive my spelling)


..or don't put yourself in a situation where it's possible to fall on your daisy. It's really not that hard. Not sure you really got the point of that video.

'Course I always just use the rope and don't really understand why people use these stupid things.

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By bearbreeder
Nov 14, 2012
Rob Warden wrote:
Watch the dmm drop test video nylon sling with overhand knot explodes apart. Merely anecdotal evidence, not a criticism of anyone. That being said...tie in with the rope or use a purcell prussic.(forgive my spelling)




are ya going to taking FF2 falls on yr sling?????? .... and even if you decided to go WHEEEEEE, at 14 kn what do ya think will happen to ya ;)

you DO realize you are GIRTH hitching the effing thing to your harness ... wonder what the "reduction" in strength will be for that =P

use yr brains people ...

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By Reginald McChufferton
Nov 14, 2012
bearbreeder wrote:
use yr brains people ...


not a lot of that going on around here

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By Keenan Waeschle
From Bozeman, MT
Nov 14, 2012
on top of the RNWF <br />June 2012
but what if I clip my PAS into the anchor, climb 4 feet above it, and jump? THEN WHAT? WOULDN'T NYLON BE SAFER IN THAT SITUATION?

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By csproul
From Davis, CA
Nov 14, 2012
Summit of Wolf's Head with Pingora in the background
Reginald McChufferton wrote:
..or don't put yourself in a situation where it's possible to fall on your daisy. It's really not that hard. Not sure you really got the point of that video. 'Course I always just use the rope and don't really understand why people use these stupid things.


bearbreader wrote:
are ya going to taking FF2 falls on yr sling??????


If you're using a daisy for it's intended purpose...aid climbing...yes, it is absolutely possible to be in a situation where you take a fall on your daisy. Not all that uncommon at all.

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By Ray Pinpillage
From West Egg
Nov 14, 2012
Middle
Reginald McChufferton wrote:
not a lot of that going on around here


Yet here you are...again...using another screen name.

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By Reginald McChufferton
Nov 14, 2012
csproul wrote:
If you're using a daisy for it's intended purpose...aid climbing...yes, it is absolutely possible to be in a situation where you take a fall on your daisy. Not all that uncommon at all.


So you're saying these things are INTENDED for aid climbing and all the sportos I see running around with 'em clipped off through their ass cheeks are just using them incorrectly? Funny, Metolius doesn't market them that way.

Even in aid climbing daisy falls are almost completely avoidable. Like I said. It's really not that hard.

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By Reginald McChufferton
Nov 14, 2012
Ray Pinpillage wrote:
Yet here you are...again...using another screen name.


So I'm getting the feeling that you're a bit of a psycho then 'eh? How long you gonna follow me around and accuse me of being someone else? It's all ready weirding me out a little. Please stop.

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By csproul
From Davis, CA
Nov 14, 2012
Summit of Wolf's Head with Pingora in the background
Reginald McChufferton wrote:
So you're saying these things are INTENDED for aid climbing and all the sportos I see running around with 'em clipped off through their ass cheeks are just using them incorrectly? Funny, Metolius doesn't market them that way. Even in aid climbing daisy falls are almost completely avoidable. Like I said. It's really not that hard.

Can you show me an example of Metolius marketing the daisy for sport climbing? That me be their most common use, but I've not seen this marketing ploy.

I'm pretty new to aid climbing, so enlighten me to your method for eliminating daisy fall potential. Eventually you need to commit to your next piece (may have bounce tested if appropriate, but maybe not)and come off your last piece that still has the daisy attached. I try to remove the last daisy asap to avoid a potential daisy fall and then get the rope clipped into that piece if I'm using it for protection. But no matter how you cut it, there is a short time that I am connected to both pieces by a daisy chain and if the top fails, I will fall back to the last piece on my daisy. Please let me know if there is some way for me to completely avoid this possibility...I'm always game for learning new things. BTW, I've taken a daisy fall on both a spectra and a nylon daisy while doing some aid practice. It may be one empirical data point, but the spectra daisy fall felt harder to me.

It may not be a good idea, but people DO use tethers of all sorts to get themselves to anchors before rappelling. And this often does mean downclimbing to those anchors. Of course you should probably just use the rope if this happens, but that's just not reality. Very few people are going to take the time to belay or set up an additional anchor to get down to a rap anchor. Instead, climbers just use their tether of choice, reach down and clip the anchor and then downclimb/lower themselves down onto the anchor...setting up the possibility of a fall right onto the anchor. I see it all the time and am guilty of doing it too, justifying because "there is no way I'm going to fall". So knowing this is a possibility, wouldn't it better to use something that had a lower impact force?

If you "just use the rope" all the time, you haven't gotten out very much. Do just about any multi-pitch rappel and you'll almost certainly be tethering into the rap anchors with something other than the rope. How else are you going to pull the rope if you're "just using the rope". Do it long enough and you'll run into situations where you're clipping the next anchor below you. So tethers of some sort do serve a useful purpose...up to you whether you use a sling, a Purcell, a daisy, or a PAS..as long as you know the limitations of what you're using.

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By bearbreeder
Nov 14, 2012
csproul wrote:
If you're using a daisy for it's intended purpose...aid climbing...yes, it is absolutely possible to be in a situation where you take a fall on your daisy. Not all that uncommon at all.


If you DO put yrseld in a position where you may well take a ff2 fall intentionally on yr sling ... Why in the world would you use a dyneema one?

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By csproul
From Davis, CA
Nov 14, 2012
Summit of Wolf's Head with Pingora in the background
bearbreeder wrote:
If you DO put yrseld in a position where you may well take a ff2 fall intentionally on yr sling ... Why in the world would you use a dyneema one?

I don't...that is kind of the point. When I use daisies of any kind it is almost exclusively for aid climbing, and I don't use dyneema. I use nylon. Just kind of pointing out that there are situations where falling onto a sling is a real possibility (despite what you and reginald have argued) and that in those cases, it may matter what material you are using.

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By bearbreeder
Nov 14, 2012
csproul wrote:
I don't...that is kind of the point. When I use daisies of any kind it is almost exclusively for aid climbing, and I don't use dyneema. I use nylon. Just kind of pointing out that there are situations where falling onto a sling is a real possibility (despite what you and reginald have argued) and that in those cases, it may matter what material you are using.


for free climbing use you should never be in a position where you would take a ff2 on yr sling .... period ...

for aid, i leave that up to you .... but if yr going to take ff2 whippers, why in the world would you buy this fancy $$$$ dyneema daisy over a regular 10$ nylon one ... you do know of course that PASes have "failed" in ff2 drop tests ... leaving this "ultimate" daisy no better than a normal sling/daisy in that regard ... i assume yr still tied into the rope =P

either way IMO ... its a yuppie product for 50 smackaroos ... when a sling costs as much as a decent cam, you know its marketing gone wild ;)

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By csproul
From Davis, CA
Nov 14, 2012
Summit of Wolf's Head with Pingora in the background
bearbreeder wrote:
for free climbing use you should never be in a position where you would take a ff2 on yr sling .... period ... for aid, i leave that up to you .... but if yr going to take ff2 whippers, why in the world would you buy this fancy $$$$ dyneema daisy over a regular 10$ nylon one ... you do know of course that PASes have "failed" in ff2 drop tests ... leaving this "ultimate" daisy no better than a normal sling/daisy in that regard ... i assume yr still tied into the rope =P either way IMO ... its a yuppie product for 50 smackaroos ... when a sling costs as much as a decent cam, you know its marketing gone wild ;)

No argument about any of that from me. I totally agree. But here is a situation I frequently run into at our local crags:

After finishing a climb we walk over to a bolted rap station. You walk over to a large ledge and the bolts are just below the ledge, such that you need to reach down, clip the bolts and climb down until you are hanging from them to set up the rappel. You rap down to another ledge, walk across it and then pretty much do the same thing on the next rap anchor. In both cases, if you are using a tether (sling/PAS/daisy) you are clipping it below you and climbing down to weight the anchors. Now, I know that ideally you'd use the rope until you are weighting the anchor and then break out your tether, but this is just not reality. It takes too much time and is just a couple easy moves to get onto the anchor(s) and the reality is that everyone just clips themselves to the anchors and scoots down to hang from them. This is a real scenario that plays out all the time, and I don't think it all that unique to our local climbing area...I've seen similar situations all across the country. So the reality is that people DO put themselves in situations where they can take a fall from above onto a sling. So the material that sling is made could make a difference, no? Anyway, I guess I just do it and make sure to not fall. Lots of no-fall situations in climbing, I guess I treat this as one of them.

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By bearbreeder
Nov 14, 2012
csproul wrote:
No argument about any of that from me. I totally agree. But here is a situation I frequently run into at our local crags: After finishing a climb we walk over to a bolted rap station. You walk over to a large ledge and the bolts are just below the ledge, such that you need to reach down, clip the bolts and climb down until you are hanging from them to set up the rappel. You rap down to another ledge, walk across it and then pretty much do the same thing on the next rap anchor. In both cases, if you are using a tether (sling/PAS/daisy) you are clipping it below you and climbing down to weight the anchors. Now, I know that ideally you'd use the rope until you are weighting the anchor and then break out your tether, but this is just not reality. It takes too much time and is just a couple easy moves to get onto the anchor(s) and the reality is that everyone just clips themselves to the anchors and scoots down to hang from them. This is a real scenario that plays out all the time, and I don't think it all that unique to our local climbing area...I've seen similar situations all across the country. So the reality is that people DO put themselves in situations where they can take a fall from above onto a sling. So the material that sling is made could make a difference, no? Anyway, I guess I just do it and make sure to not fall. Lots of no-fall situations in climbing, I guess I treat this as one of them.


if there is any real possibility of falling ... the proper way to do it is to set up a rope from above ... or quickly tie in with the rope and clip the rope to the bolts ... or at least back yourself up with the rope ... or have yr partner give you a quick belay on the rope ... takes a minute ...

or even better ... learn how to set up the rap first since you can reach the bolts ... tie off the device then go down ... its all set up for ya already

i mean how many of these raps are we talking about in a climb? ... cant be more than the 10+ double raps on the royal arches ;)

the most important thing is for people to learn and practice the basic skills and not put themselves in bad situations ... rather than depend upon poor "solutions" such as "oh its nylon i can take a ff2 fall on it" ...

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By redlude97
Nov 14, 2012
I think the key point should be that any time you anchor in with anything but the rope, you should always avoid any slack in the system and keep the line tensioned. Then we can avoid all of these issues being discussed.

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By csproul
From Davis, CA
Nov 14, 2012
Summit of Wolf's Head with Pingora in the background
redlude97 wrote:
I think the key point should be that any time you anchor in with anything but the rope, you should always avoid any slack in the system and keep the line tensioned. Then we can avoid all of these issues being discussed.

And I've already shown you that there are situations where this is just not reality.

bearbreeder said,
"if there is any real possibility of falling ... the proper way to do it is to set up a rope from above ... or quickly tie in with the rope and clip the rope to the bolts ... or at least back yourself up with the rope ... or have yr partner give you a quick belay on the rope ... takes a minute ...

or even better ... learn how to set up the rap first since you can reach the bolts ... tie off the device then go down ... its all set up for ya already

i mean how many of these raps are we talking about in a climb? ... cant be more than the 10+ double raps on the royal arches ;)

the most important thing is for people to learn and practice the basic skills and not put themselves in bad situations ... rather than depend upon poor "solutions" such as "oh its nylon i can take a ff2 fall on it"
"


Nobody is arguing that using the rope and having a "quick" belay (that's pretty relative)isn't the "proper" solution. But that isn't always reality and you know it. Let me give you another real world scenario:

A few years ago I was rapping off a route in RMNP in the middle of a storm. I think I missed the real rap station and proceeded to move over to another set of bolts that I could see. When I was nearing the bolts I realized that I would probably rap off the end of my rope if I were to fully reach the anchor. However, I was able to turn myself nearly upside down and reach the bolts with a sling and clip myself into them. I then went off the ends of the rope and gently climbed down to the anchor. I was in danger of falling onto my slings at that moment, but it was probably faster and more safe than going back up to find other anchors or hanging out in the snow/rain while building an intermediate anchor. My partner was then in a similar situation where he neared the ends of the rope, handed me a sling and I clipped him in while he rapped off of the ends and downclimbed the rest of the way to the anchors (while holding onto one end of the rope of course). We were both at risk of a fall onto a static sling and the reality of the situation was that this was a better choice than dicking around in a storm looking for "safer" options. So, IMO, you try to avoid these situations, but eventually these scenarios WILL come up. To say you should NEVER put yourself in a situation where you have slack in a static tether is just not reality unless you stick to sport climbing (or rig yourself a tether with some stretch).

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By Matt N
From Santa Barbara, CA
Nov 14, 2012
OTL
redlude97 wrote:
I think the key point should be that any time you anchor in with anything but the rope, you should always avoid any slack in the system and keep the line tensioned. Then we can avoid all of these issues being discussed.



csproul wrote:
And I've already shown you that there are situations where this is just not reality.


Downclimb to one side with the sling almost tensioned. Less likely to truly FF2 onto it.

But, seriously - has anyone taken a clean fall onto their tether in a situation like this? Not likely. You can also fall during the approach and die. Gauge your risk, accept it and move on or go home.

Damn, did I really just reply to another PAS thread? [foreheadsmack]

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By bearbreeder
Nov 14, 2012
csproul wrote:
And I've already shown you that there are situations where this is just not reality. Nobody is arguing that using the rope and having a "quick" belay (that's pretty relative)isn't the "proper" solution. But that isn't always reality and you know it. Let me give you another real world scenario: A few years ago I was rapping off a route in RMNP in the middle of a storm. I think I missed the real rap station and proceeded to move over to another set of bolts that I could see. When I was nearing the bolts I realized that I would probably rap off the end of my rope if I were to fully reach the anchor. However, I was able to turn myself nearly upside down and reach the bolts with a sling and clip myself into them. I then went off the ends of the rope and gently climbed down to the anchor. I was in danger of falling onto my slings at that moment, but it was probably faster and more safe than going back up to find other anchors or hanging out in the snow/rain while building an intermediate anchor. My partner was then in a similar situation where he neared the ends of the rope, handed me a sling and I clipped him in while he rapped off of the ends and downclimbed the rest of the way to the anchors (while holding onto one end of the rope of course). We were both at risk of a fall onto a static sling and the reality of the situation was that this was a better choice than dicking around in a storm looking for "safer" options. So, IMO, you try to avoid these situations, but eventually these scenarios WILL come up. To say you should NEVER put yourself in a situation where you have slack in a static tether is just not reality unless you stick to sport climbing (or rig yourself a tether with some stretch).


if you CHOOSE to put yourself in these situations ... have no absolutely no illusions that ANY nylon or dyneema sling will save you ... PERIOD

at that point you assume you are soloing ... if you did fall on that sling, even if it held, youd break your back and would need a rescue

dont miss the rap station, and learn how to re-ascend the rope ... you were LUCKY that your rope just happened to come short of this other station ...

what would have happened if you fell while inverted upside down on a single sling ... would it really matter at that point?

why couldnt you have just tied a sling to the each end of the rope, tied yourself to the slings ... and lower yourself hand over hand ... i mean if you can reach the anchors by inverting, you can extend your rope with a sling ... and youll have 60m of dynamic stretch if you fall ;)

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By csproul
From Davis, CA
Nov 14, 2012
Summit of Wolf's Head with Pingora in the background
bearbreeder wrote:
if you CHOOSE to put yourself in these situations ... have no absolutely no illusions that ANY nylon or dyneema sling will save you ... PERIOD at that point you assume you are soloing ... if you did fall on that sling, even if it held, youd break your back and would need a rescue dont miss the rap station, and learn how to re-ascend the rope ... you were LUCKY that your rope just happened to come short of this other station ... what would have happened if you fell while inverted upside down on a single sling ... would it really matter at that point? why couldnt you have just tied a sling to the each end of the rope, tied yourself to the slings ... and lower yourself hand over hand ... i mean if you can reach the anchors by inverting, you can extend your rope with a sling ... and youll have 60m of dynamic stretch if you fall ;)

Don't miss the rap station!! That's rich. I'm pretty sure you've been climbing long enough that you've had it happen too. If not, you're just lucky. Besides, I'm not sure I missed the anchors (never saw them) and I could definitely see a lower set of bolts that I thought I could reach. I came up a bit short. It happens.

And "learn to re-ascend the rope"?! Stop being a condescending prick. I know quite well how to ascend a rope. I've already told you that was an option, but given the weather conditions it was not an option I was fond of. It would have taken way more time than doing what I did. Besides, given that I did not see the other anchors, I would have been ascending the rope hoping to find other anchors or building my own. All in a storm. I still think what I did was a better option.

I chose to put myself in that situation knowing full well that it would hurt if i fell, but that I'd still be alive and attached to the anchor rather than falling the next 1000 ft. So, no, it's not really like soloing at all. I was also fully aware that the short downclimb was easy and that I was treating it as a "do not fall" situation.

I could not have fallen while inverted, I had a rappel back-up in place keeping me "on rappel". After I clipped my sling I removed the back-up and slid off the end of the rope while down-climbing the rest of the way to the anchor.

"breaking my back" is complete conjecture. I've taken a couple of daisy falls while aid climbing and while they were not pleasant, my back is just fine. As you have been fond of pointing out 1)there is a harness and human body in the system, 2)the sling/daisy is not a steel cable, and 3)these are not "real" FF2's in that there is usually some swinging and/or you are not at full extension above the anchor point.

Once again, so you get it...I am not arguing that it is a good idea to put yourself in that situation, but to argue that it is not a plausible real world occurrence is ignorant.

Now the whole tying the slings to the end of the rope idea...now you might be getting somewhere. Honestly, that idea never crossed my mind.

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By bearbreeder
Nov 14, 2012
csproul wrote:
Don't miss the rap station!! That's rich. I'm pretty sure you've been climbing long enough that you've had it happen too. If not, you're just lucky. Besides, I'm not sure I missed the anchors (never saw them) and I could definitely see a lower set of bolts that I thought I could reach. I came up a bit short. It happens. And "learn to re-ascend the rope"?! Stop being a condescending prick. I know quite well how to ascend a rope. I've already told you that was an option, but given the weather conditions it was not an option I was fond of. It would have taken way more time than doing what I did. I chose to put myself in that situation knowing full well that it would hurt if i fell, but that I'd still be alive and attached to the anchor rather than falling the next 1000 ft. So, no, it's not really like soloing at all. I was also fully aware that the short downclimb was easy and that I was treating it as a "do not fall" situation. I could not have fallen while inverted, I had a rappel back-up in place keeping me "on rappel". After I clipped my sling I removed the back-up and slid off the end of the rope while down-climbing the rest of the way to the anchor. "breaking my back" is complete conjecture. I've taken a couple of daisy falls while aid climbing and while they were not pleasant, my back is just fine. As you have been fond of pointing out 1)there is a harness and human body in the system, 2)the sling/daisy is not a steel cable, and 3)these are not "real" FF2's in that there is usually some swinging and/or you are not at full extension above the anchor point. Once again, so you get it...I am not arguing that it is a good idea to put yourself in that situation, but to argue that it is not a plausible real world occurrence is ignorant. Now the whole tying the slings to the end of the rope idea...now you might be getting somewhere. Honestly, that idea never crossed my mind.


you chose to put yourself in that situation ... thats the risk you CHOOSE to take ..

if for some crazy reason the anchor is just a foot or two away then ...

1. tie a knot to the each end of the rope, clip a biner and a sling to each end and clip yourself into the slings...

2. lower yourself to the end of the rope ...

3. unclip your belay device ... you are now fully on the slings ... if you are on dead vertical terrain you can use a prussik with a releasable munter/mule above the device for more control if you are worried when taking off the belay device ..

4. lower yourself hand over hand to the anchors ... if you fall you have rope in the system regardless of the sling material

5. clip into the anchors ... partner does the same sequence, you can walk him/her through it if needed

6. start by pulling say the left side ... but as the right side goes up make sure you clip an EXTRA sling to it ... take out the knot of the left side ... now pull the right side which you have extended ...

at no point is the fall "dangerous" ... and you can test the pull of the rope before the second comes down

yes i have dealt with this situation before ... and i CHOSE not to put myself in a situation where i could fall on a static sling ...

FLAG


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