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By Allen Corneau
From Houston, TX
Jan 29, 2013



www.metoliusclimbing.com/gatekeeper.html

DMM Belay Master, BD Gridlock, Rock Exotica Pirate WireEye, CAMP HMS Belay Lock... Seems like these "keeper" lockers are becoming quite the rage (for the manufacturers, at least).

i don't know how well these will play out in the marketplace but I'll give them one thing... maybe if more people buy these kinds of biners they will stop putting their belay biner through their harness tie-in points and on the belay loop were it belongs!


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By scott cooney
From La Casa Taco
Jan 29, 2013
11th hour of the Sundial

ummmm, please explain to me how you clip the belay biner to the belay loop on an alpine bod harness? clipping through the tie in loops is by no means incorrect, just a matter of preference.... the belay loop is handy but isn't required, tie in points on the other hand are vital and just as ligit to clip through when attaching a belay device.


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By John Wilder
From Las Vegas, NV
Jan 29, 2013

Well, kind of...the Alpine Bod has loose tie in points and no loop- therefore it is designed to have the tie in points used as a belay point.

Most harnesses, on the other hand, have much stiffer, smaller tie-in points, and are specifically designed for the user to use the belay loop. Harnesses with a belay loop create a less than ideal situation if you clip into the tie in points to belay. I wouldnt go so far as to say that it is unsafe, but I would not recommend it as a matter of course.

Edit- i dont buy into these carabiners in general- i prefer to actually tend my belay rather than rely on a carabiner to do it for me. That said, I do really like them for rope soloing while setting at the gym.


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By Alvaro Arnal
Administrator
From Aspen, CO
Jan 29, 2013
Pup Tent OS

scott cooney wrote:
ummmm, please explain to me how you clip the belay biner to the belay loop on an alpine bod harness? clipping through the tie in loops is by no means incorrect, just a matter of preference.... the belay loop is handy but isn't required, tie in points on the other hand are vital and just as ligit to clip through when attaching a belay device.


When belaying with brake-assist devices such as the gri-gri it's actually incorrect and dangerous (according to manufacturers) to use these devices in a sideways orientation. Clipping your belay biner through your tie-in points instead of your belay loop automatically places the belay device in this sideways orientation.

To the OP- I resisted the "gimmicky" BD Gridlock for a while but after giving a try with my gri-gri it's now my preference. These "keeper" biners keep the belay device from cross-loading the gate. As far as I know they are becoming quite popular and generally accepted as people's preferred belay biner.


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By bearbreeder
Jan 29, 2013

marketing ...

im waiting for someone to provide me with the accident report of a belay biner breaking from crossloading in a real world belay ...

i think its ironic that some companies are so worried about crossloading belay biners as a safety issue ... yet they keep selling those old deadly belay biners to people

if it was a REAL safety issue you would think they would ethically stop selling those deadly biners ;)


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By ZackBay
Jan 29, 2013
By Rap Rings

Paying a few extra bucks for a biner is a small price for a little piece of mind if you are worried about cross loading.


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By Matt N
From Santa Barbara, CA
Jan 29, 2013
OTL

My CAMP harness (~3 year old model) has this as do most of their harnesses



No Twist Belay Loop: This is a patented feature from CAMP. An extra opening in the belay loop holds the belay carabiner securely in place so it cannot flip around and get loaded incorrectly in the event of a fall. The loop is reinforced with a piece of Hypalon to create extra friction for the carabiner once the webbing has stretched out after several uses. The No Twist belay loop is also nice for keeping the belay biner down and out of the way while climbing. This eliminates the need to attach and detach the biner at each belay making it far less likely to be dropped.


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By DrApnea
From Salt Lake City, UT
Jan 29, 2013

Per Climbing Anchors page 104: Dynamic forces in a fall:
source

"The maximum force a modern belay device can put on the rope without slipping is 2 or 3 kN. That means the maximum force that any fall can put on the belayer is south of 675 lbf."

So if you are using a carabiner that is rated less than 2-3kN crossload strength worry. If not, then realize that this is about marketing and not safety.


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By Marc H
From Lafayette, CO
Jan 29, 2013
The Cathedral Spires in RMNP, left to right: Stiletto, Sharkstooth, Forbidden Tower, Petit Grepon, The Saber, The Foil, The Moon & The Jackknife.

I've got a BD Gridlock that I liked for a minute. I think I actually advocated for it on another forum a while ago. I haven't used it in a while.

BD Gridlock for sale: $10--delivered to anywhere in Boulder County; extra for shipping. Drop me a PM in you're interested.


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By DrApnea
From Salt Lake City, UT
Jan 29, 2013

Also if you take into account the UIAA maximum impact force of your rope, assuming you have a modern dynamic rope, the impact force is usually 7-10kN in a worst case scenerio, which just happens to be about the same as the crossload strength of all locking carabiners. So even if you replace the standard carabiner with a keeper type and avoid the crossloading issue all together, your rope will most likely never even put that much force on the gear anyway (and remember that the maximum force is evaluated without any of the slip/give of a belay device included in the system)


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By Brendan Blanchard
From Strafford, NH
Jan 29, 2013
Obi Wan Ryobi - Darth Vader Crag, Rumney NH

scott cooney wrote:
clipping through the tie in loops is by no means incorrect, just a matter of preference....


Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't clipping the biner to the two attachment points, then a belay device a perfect example of crossloading? One that is very avoidable and unnecessary. As a matter of fact, BD's picture grams for locking biners shows such a scenario and considers it a deadly mistake. Can you get away with it? Sure. But it's actually MORE work to not use the belay loop. What gives?

www.blackdiamondequipment.com/uploads/black-diamond/files/M1>>>

Edit: Looked at the Alpine Bod. It is set up to that the two attachment points are pulled directly up in the case of a belayer catching a fall. Most modern/non light harnesses are more fixed, and would pull and crossload the belay biner, especially if the belayer is lifted off the ground.


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By Sandy Crimp
Jan 30, 2013

I'm sure glad these exist now...I'm tired of hearing about all of these climbers dying due to crossloaded belay biners. It's pratically epidemic! I mean there are at least 0 reported cases...How many people have to die before we all switch to these snazzy new lifesavers!!!

;-\


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By redlude97
Jan 30, 2013

Brendan Blanchard wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't clipping the biner to the two attachment points, then a belay device a perfect example of crossloading? One that is very avoidable and unnecessary. As a matter of fact, BD's picture grams for locking biners shows such a scenario and considers it a deadly mistake. Can you get away with it? Sure. But it's actually MORE work to not use the belay loop. What gives? www.blackdiamondequipment.com/uploads/black-diamond/files/M1>>> Edit: Looked at the Alpine Bod. It is set up to that the two attachment points are pulled directly up in the case of a belayer catching a fall. Most modern/non light harnesses are more fixed, and would pull and crossload the belay biner, especially if the belayer is lifted off the ground.

No. Just NO.


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By Rob Warden, Space Lizard
From Springdale Ut
Jan 30, 2013
blah

...its an excuse to sell a $20-$30 belay/rap biner. I have never had my GriGri cross-load with a locking oval. or my manual devices with the same biner. Being a whore I would recommend the DMM one at $14.95 versus the gridlock for $19.95/$30 for magnetron. Or this stupid thing at 17.95. at least the belay master by DMM forces you to lock it to get the plastic into place. and is the same price for something made with pride in Wales versus Metolius making all their biners in Taiwan


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