Maximum weight differential between belayer and climber on lead?

I know that it depends on the caliber of the climb, but what would you say is a generally acceptable number?

If the belayer is the heavier, it doesn't make a difference.

If the climber is heavier, it makes minimal difference.

I don't think there's a point where you would need to decline to belay a heavier leader. I understand the concern about yanking your belayer up to the first piece/bolt. You can compensate for the heavier climber by anchoring the belayer.

And I doubt there is a magic number for this.

Edit: I don't know what you mean by caliber of the climb, but I think fall factor will determine how hard the belayer gets yanked up or when you are worried the belayer can't catch the fall.

FrankPS wrote:If the belayer is the heavier, it doesn't make a difference.

It makes a huge difference when giving a soft catch. Light belayers dont need to jump, they can get pulled up. Heavy belayers need to make the extra effort to jump when they outweigh their climber.

As far as the magic number goes, a carabiner is very roughly about 60% efficient. Accordingly, I would say the limit is 130% climber weight relative to belayer weight. If the belayer anchors in, then there is no practical limit.

FrankPS wrote:Edit: I don't know what you mean by caliber of the climb, but I think fall factor will determine how hard the belayer gets yanked up or when you are worried the belayer can't catch the fall.

"Caliber" was a poor word choice. What I was trying to convey was that it would vary based on if you're taking X-rated falls as opposed to something easier to catch.

Every carabiner you clip reduces the efficiency of the system giving a greatly higher than 130% ratio being acceptable. I've taken some serious falls with much lighter belayers who were unanchored and they went for a ride, but not all the way to the first bolt.

Ryan M Moore wrote:Every carabiner you clip reduces the efficiency of the system giving a greatly higher than 130% ratio being acceptable. I've taken some serious falls with much lighter belayers who were unanchored and they went for a ride, but not all the way to the first bolt.

Yes, once they clip numerous bolts. If you clip enough bolts, it's actually quite possible to catch a lead fall with no belay device due to the drag. However, people whip down onto the first, second and third bolt all the time, and in those cases there is little additional drag.

one example. If the protection is pretty much in line the whole way it's been my experience that once the leader outweighs their belayer by more the 50 pounds the belayer is going to have a lot more difficulty controlling the situation and there's no way they can give a hard catch or pull their leader up short, for instance trying to keep them off a ledge.

I agree w/ 20kn, I feel like it's hard to belay a much lighter climber well when you outweigh them.
I get weird looks when I stand back away from the wall when belaying really light partners. I've found that it's easier and "softer" (provided you've got the space) to stand farther from the first piece (again if it's safe, obviously not if gear is going to get zippered) and simply take a step or 2 forward rather than jumping.
That's just me.

Brent Apgar wrote:I feel like it's hard to belay a much lighter climber well when you outweigh them.

do you use an ATC or an assisted braking device? i thought it was hard not to give soft catch with ATC, but I wouldn't really know because my climber partners are always heavier than me

Is the OP's question about soft catches, or is he concerned about the belayer losing control of the rope due to the weight mismatch? He wasn't really specific about why he wanted to know the max weight difference.

7 pounds.

Em Cos wrote:7 pounds.

Thank you. I will start weighing my partners from now on.

My experience as a heavier climber has been that I need to be on the ball to give a soft catch. It's something that's constantly on my mind whilst belaying. But it's possible to do.

Being belayed as a heavier climber, seems to get you a soft catch by default. I've been caught by lighter belayers with no problem, but they do go for a ride. If significantly lighter and weaker, and not using an assisted locking device, it can be a little scary to think about. But if they're mentally prepared for it, it seems a lighter belayer is perfectly able, physically. I've had nothing but safe catches with belayers 50lbs or so lighter.

In my experience it becomes a real issue once you get 50+lb's heavier than your belayer. For me, thats the point were falls become much longer than they really should be, the belayer starts to get thrown a little too much, and achnoring the belayer in means they take an uncomfortably hard squeeze on a bigger fall. Whether it is unsafe really just depends on the type of fall and the type of climb.

Zac Diehl wrote:I know that it depends on the caliber of the climb, but what would you say is a generally acceptable number?

JonnyGreenlee wrote:and achnoring the belayer in means they take an uncomfortably hard squeeze on a bigger fall.

Anchor to the belay loop.

First off, the catch on an X rated fall would be quite soft, as the ground would be doing 100% of the catching not the belayer, most the time that is. If you take an X rated fall it's very likely that you are going to die, and if you don't, you'll wish you did because you would probably break nearly every bone in your body. That's what X means, X signifies that there is a death fall on the route, just for clarification. falls aren't rated with "X" or "R", falls are rated on a scale based on the amount of rope that is out, and how far you fell. If you have placed zero protection and you climb 15 feet and fall, you will fall 30 feet, 30/15=2 which is a factor 2 fall. By definition a factor 2 fall is falling the whole length of rope that is out, however there is always some slippage so it isn't equivalent to a UIAA fall. Factor 2 falls suck, they are not fun. I took a factor 2 fall about a month ago because the rock crumbled and my nut pulled out, it was about 30feet, and to touch on the weight subject, my belayer was atleast 40 pounds lighter than me and he caught me just fine. So, now about the weight difference, as long as you have a belayer who can catch you, don't worry about it. I've had my younger brother belay me when I outweighed him by 70lbs and when I fell it picked him up about 5 feet. If you're really concerned about it, tie a sling to a tree or something and anchor yourself to the ground. If you're using an ATC you don't need to jump to catch your leader. Just catch them, the device has slippage it will be fine. If I'm leading a route and I fall, I couldn't care less if the catch is soft, I just want to be caught, and not by the ground.. But back on topic, as weight difference goes don't worry about it, and if you feel inclined anchor yourself to a tree with a long sling.

eli poss wrote: i thought it was hard not to give soft catch with ATC, but I wouldn't really know because my climber partners are always heavier than me

It's plenty easy to give a hard catch with an ATC. In most situations, ATC vs GriGri makes no real difference. Catching standard falls doesent cause much, if any, slippage on an ATC.

20 kN wrote: It's plenty easy to give a hard catch with an ATC. In most situations, ATC vs GriGri makes no real difference. Catching standard falls doesent cause much, if any, slippage on an ATC.

well i guess it's good I weigh 140 because I don't have good enough reflexes to jump at the same time my partner falls

1

eli poss wrote: well i guess it's good I weigh 140 because I don't have good enough reflexes to jump at the same time my partner falls

At 140 (that's about what I weigh too), there is rarely a need to time a jump with that precision. Unless you have a very light climber, I find it sufficient to merely step into the fall to give a softer catch. This does not require great reflexes. Conversely, if the situation calls for it, you can sit down on the catch to keep it short at the penalty of a harder catch.

It's not too hard to give soft catches in the gym when you can fully anticipate your climber's fall. I've caught plenty such falls outweighing my partner by 40 lbs (I'm ~145) while using pretty stiff gym ropes & a Grigri (I've also mis-timed & given harder-than-ideal catches when I didn't anticipate the fall; it's pretty stressful to belay a much lighter climber).

Long falls outside, however, is a different ball game. All that jumping BS is only good for a relatively short fall (and can be very difficult to time w/ rope drag) & you really need rope slippage (i.e. not Grigri) to give a soft catch.

brandonemery wrote:First off, the catch on an X rated fall would be quite soft, as the ground would be doing 100% of the catching not the belayer

:)