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Master Cams vs. C4s?

Original Post
Dylan Randall · · Nashville, TN · Joined Sep 2012 · Points: 615

So this question very well may have been posted in the past and gotten buried under the infinitely growing pile of MP threads, but...

What are your opinions regarding Metolius Master Cams vs. Camalot C4s? I ask because I am looking to begin expanding my own trad rack. Through some searching I found positive reviews on both ends but no formal argument for one side over the other.

Additional Info:
-I would be buying the cams by set, not individually.
-I am aware that I could buy used cams, but have been saving up for a new batch that will last me indefinitely. Plus i'm also weary of buying used climbing gear.
-I climb in the northeast currently, from the Gunks to New Hampshire but specifically the Adirondacks. So I'm typically climbing on granite.

rocknice2 · · Montreal, QC · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 3,847

You can't go wrong with either cam but each have their strengths. Climbing in the northeast doesn't really require the higher holding power of Metolius but benefits from the extra range of Camalots. The cam angle is not that much different but is a bit steeper unlike Aliens which are very steep. C4's and X4's get their increased range mostly from the double axle.

The C4's make up the base of almost every rack in the northeast. After that you can supplement with any flexible cam. I personally prefer X4's first and Aliens second followed by Mastercams.

James Dean Anderson · · Longmont, CO · Joined May 2013 · Points: 146

Hey Dylan, i'm selling a set of lightly used master cams in their most popular sizes if you are interested.

mountainproject.com/v/fs-qu…

Bob M · · Alpharetta, GA · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 50

I agree with John. C4s in the bigger sizes and Metolius or X4s for the smaller sizes. I have a full set of Mastercams, and I love the smaller sizes, but I find the #5 and #6 a bit floppy when working the triggers. It's not terrible, and I'm glad I have them, but if I were doing it over, I'd skip the bigger MCs and replace with C4s. Of course, if you're getting a deal on a set, that's the way to go.

Wiled Horse · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2002 · Points: 3,669

is this a trick question?

Dylan Randall · · Nashville, TN · Joined Sep 2012 · Points: 615
Darren Mabe wrote:is this a trick question?
nope.

So I originally asked the question to highlight the pros and cons of the few cams that overlap, but now see there are only a few that do. The reason I'm partial to the Master Cams is because of their smaller sizes. I've been climbing trad with the gear of my good friends, and have come to realize I enjoy face climbing and fingercracks.

So I guess now the conversation would be, as others have stated, the difference between MCs and X4s.
Ryan Watts · · Bishop, CA · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 25
Dylan Randall wrote: nope. So I originally asked the question to highlight the pros and cons of the few cams that overlap, but now see there are only a few that do. The reason I'm partial to the Master Cams is because of their smaller sizes. I've been climbing trad with the gear of my good friends, and have come to realize I enjoy face climbing and fingercracks. So I guess now the conversation would be, as others have stated, the difference between MCs and X4s.
I have climbed on both. Personally I own the MCs but I already had them and a set of aliens when x4s came out so I didn't really think about buying them.

MCs are bomber no doubt but a few gripes I have encountered:

- you need to keep them clean or they will get "sticky" and the cam action won't really work. In an ideal world, you'd clean all your cams after every use, but who does that? MCs are the only ones I've noticed getting "stuck" to the point that I couldn't retract the lobes until I cleaned it. Now I stay vigilant about cleaning them and they're fine, but it's something to consider.

- they can be hard to clean (when following) sometimes. Obviously the placement plays a part here but especially when you get down to the blue MC and below range there's not as much margin between "good" and "over cammed". I've noticed MCs tend to get "stuck" to the point where you gave to really fiddle them out moreso than say aliens or x4s.

- they feel less bomber in slick rock. This one might just be a personal hang up, but when climbing slick rock (e.g. Polished granite) or when the only option is a somewhat "sketchy" placement, I tend to reach for aliens over MCs. I don't really have any scientific backing for this just something I've noticed.

Honestly though, if I could only have one set of small cams?

Aliens.
mountainhick · · Black Hawk, CO · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 120

Aliens

doligo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 264
mountainhick wrote:Aliens
+1. Especially for the Gunks and granite.
rocknice2 · · Montreal, QC · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 3,847
Dylan Randall wrote: nope. So I originally asked the question to highlight the pros and cons of the few cams that overlap, but now see there are only a few that do. The reason I'm partial to the Master Cams is because of their smaller sizes. I've been climbing trad with the gear of my good friends, and have come to realize I enjoy face climbing and fingercracks. So I guess now the conversation would be, as others have stated, the difference between MCs and X4s.
You're going to be climbing mostly in the northeast which is exactly where I climb including the Gunks. As you may have noticed the Dacks have somewhat irregular cracks. There are lumps and divots inside the cracks, then there's the flaring cracks that widen as you get deeper.
In the Gunks you'll find numerous pebble embedded in the rock and the infamous horizontal channel. Getting into the sweet spot amidst the pebble is at best frustrating at worst territory terrifying. This is why the Aliens rule in the Gunks. They had the greatest range in a narrow head flexible cam. Now that the X4's are out they have the greatest range.
The MC's, Aliens and X4's will all work great in the easy placements but you'll have an edge when it comes to the difficult placements. This is where the Aliens and X4's will shine.
The advantage Mastercams have is in holding power. Because of the lower cam angle but this is exactly what hampers the range. The X4's while having a slightly larger cam angle and slightly lower holding power of the MC's they have the greatest range of any cam.

Any of these cams will work fine but if you really want to define the nuances then get the X4's or Aliens.
ze dirtbag · · Tahoe · Joined Jun 2012 · Points: 50

+1 for c4's .4 up

+1 for aliens yellow down

i love my metolius offsets (yellow/orange, blue/yellow, purple/blue) for granite

i've plugged the x4's a handfull of times, they're a beefy ass cam....but they are heavy and i feel like you can get a more versatile cam for your money. think about flexing in those horizontal placements too, i own a few wc zero cams and love the stem (plus the yellow is right between a green and blue alien)

Will Cohen · · Denver, Co · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 80

Gunks climber here

I own x4's .2 and .3 and c4's .4-3
I also own mastercams 1, 2, and 3

The master cams actually fit pretty damn well between the x4/c4 ranges. In order my rack goes .2, blue bc, .3, yellow mc, .4, orange mc, .5... so I think they complement the x4's very nicely.

I haven't gotten to place them much, but I'm happy with the variety in size ranges. That said, in less than ideal placements x4's will go in first. I'll also probably get a .1 x4 rather than a 0 and 00 mc. My super small placements tend to be shallow and I would rather trust the x4 trigger system. Also, irregular cracks tend to prefer the bd or alien trigger system. They are better able to allow two of the lobes to be open wider than the other two (not ideal, but we're talking irregular cracks here).

I'm looking forward to climbing more with this rack, and sussing out the differences in the cams.

my blue x4 is my favorite cam on my rack thus far --that thing fits on almost every pitch!

Sam N. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2011 · Points: 0

I have had Mastercams for a few years and now have some X4s as well. I have noticed that Mastercams have smaller range which can be a pain because you have to use just the right size for a given placement. On the other hand, a set of Mastercams over a given range will give you more cams to work with, so you have more cams available to you. For instance a blue and grey X4 cover a similar range to a blue, yellow and orange Mastercam. Also, the Mastercams are very light.

When I got my X4s I immediately felt more confident in their placements and holding power. I don't know if that is due to the alloy, the range, or some other factor, but I definitely trust them more than Mastercams. I have no clear reason for this, I just feel good about them. Also, the X4 feels better in a placement requiring more flexibility such as a horizontal crack.

I will say that is nice to have both though because they have slightly different ranges. For instance, sometimes a blue Mastercam will fit where a blue X4 wouldn't quite go because the Mastercam has a little bit smaller size when cammed.

I would like to try some Totem Basics (alien clones) at some point too.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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