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marmot "lifetime" warranty worthless for me
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By DannyUncanny
From Vancouver
Sep 11, 2013
The lifetime in lifetime guarantee is for the lifetime of the product, not your life. The product is guaranteed right up until it dies.

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By climber pat
From Las Cruces, NM
Sep 11, 2013
DannyUncanny wrote:
The lifetime in lifetime guarantee is for the lifetime of the product, not your life. The product is guaranteed right up until it dies.



Most of the "lifetime warranties" I see are worded exactly like this and I always think it is weasle wording to avoid having to state how long their product should last and avoid having to honoring a warranty. I would much rather see an actual duration instead of a highly subjective term. For example my car's power train is warranted for 10 years or 100000 miles which ever comes first.

There are a few products which explicitly state the lifetime of the original owner. I like these warranties.

Personally, I don't care about warranties much. If the product lasts a reasonable period of time for the type and price of the product then I turn into a repeat customer; if not I move on. If a product is crap and needs to be warrantied, I have no faith that the replaced version will be any better. 4 years for a lightly used pack would not meet my value threshold for a repeat customer.

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By chuffnugget
From Bolder, CO
Sep 11, 2013
Pack is clearly barely used, but is delaminating from the inside.

Thanks for the heads up. Won't be buying Marmot.

What is with the vehement defence of this company Greg, do you work for them or something?

Companies that give a 'lifetime warrant' need to stick by it. Full stop.

Do you feel like a better person because you are defending a huge company from the unwashed dirtbag climber masses?

They work for us dude.

...on a related note, Brakemasters sucks! Burned several times with poor, dangerous work and no warranty upheld.

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By Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Sep 11, 2013
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after a day of cragging.
Perhaps you unknowingly smeared some pbj on that lining and an actual marmot did that to your Marmot. Then both you and the manufacturer are wrong, and ultimately a marmot would be the cause of a negative view of Marmot- all by mere chance and chock full of irony. The Cohen Bros can't write shit like this.

On a side note, most fleeces aren't real great with fire, but I had a Marmot fleece go up like I doused it with gasoline from a simple ember. I didn't try to get a new one or even bitch. I chalked it up to a drunken moron getting too close to giant fire wearing what is essentially a highly flammable hairball.

I do pretty much agree that Marmot should cover the pack. If the pack is rarely used ruggedly (as it should be able to) and the rest of it is fine except one part looks like it's been through a war, then it's a defect. Bummer too. I was thinking about getting a limelight tent, now I'm reconsidering.

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By Ben Brotelho
From Albany, NY
Sep 11, 2013
Epic free solo with a pack on
Take to Facebook. Post pictures of it all over their facebook page...tell them you don't want them to lose a "long time customer," and that you're disappointed with the quality/service.

You'll get a free pack

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By Ben Brotelho
From Albany, NY
Sep 11, 2013
Epic free solo with a pack on
20 kN wrote:
hmm you might want to look up the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act. That federal act places the burden of proving the product is not covered under warranty upon the manufacturer. In other words, I believe you have a legal right to ask the manufacturer to prove the damage was not caused by a defect, and if they cant they are required under federal law to replace the product. The Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act is famous for protecting those who modify automobiles. It states that it is illegal for a manufacturer to void a warranty solely because you modified a part. They can only void a warranty on the part you modified, and only if they can prove the modification resulted in damage to the part.



Sounds like a good way to spend $$$$$ on a lawyer and a lawsuit for a couple hundred dollar pack

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By CJC
Sep 11, 2013
"personally i really dont care at all if marmot covers it or not"

"whether they cover it or not really doesnt matter too much to me at this point"

seems like you really do care. a LOT. well keep up the good fight man.

:)

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By Ryan Nevius
From The Range of Light
Sep 11, 2013
Mt. Agassiz
The "Customer is always right" and "Lifetime warranty" way of doing business became mainstream when Stew Leonard brought it into his supermarket. Why? Because people and companies saw it was MORE PROFITABLE to give the occasional customer something they wanted, even if there was an upfront cost, because they would see a positive return in the long run (increased volume of sales, for various reasons, as a result of the smaller upfront cost). Heck, he even paid for a lady's $2000 dental bill because she cracked a tooth while eating some corn(?)that she purchased at his place. Again, why? Because that $2000 was an investment that meant she would return for YEARS, her children would return, and her friends would know what kind of company they were dealing with (a company that cared about CS). Imagine if he wouldn't have paid that bill...he may have been losing out on $1000 worth of her business per year for the rest of her life.

What am I getting at? Businesses adopted the lifetime warranty and "customer is always right" policy because it was good...for business. Yes, it is inherently also good for the customer, but it is primarily a business move.

What happens when people start abusing this policy? Well, the business starts to lose money (or close to it), and the investment they make in every customer is not worth it. They have to start picking and choosing their battles. Take the REI Return Policy change, for example. Maybe Marmot is experiencing something similar.

Could it be that quality is actually lacking in Marmot's products and is contributing to a higher number of returns and exchanges? Sure. But this could also be a situation where we're seeing people think that goods should last forever, even in a closet. Ropes get old...sitting. Materials start to break down...while sitting. Same story with some adhesives.

Am I arguing one way or the other here? No. 4 years can be a long time or a short time for a pack. I've blown through a pack in less than a day, and also have had packs last me for 15 years. I don't know enough info about the life of the pack to cast my judgement. But what I can say is, for some reason, this is a business move by Marmot.

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By Peter Jackson
From Rumney, NH
Sep 11, 2013
Just in case the two big belay anchors aren't obvious enough for you, here is where to find the belay station.
I've read the whole thread, and it's possible that I overlooked it, but nobody seems to be talking about gear repair and maintenance.

I am going to set aside the warranty issue, since I cannot know the conditions under which you stored that pack for 11 months out of the year (In your attic? In a cool, dry place? In the basement? Packed full? Empty? Clean? Dirty? Doesn't matter. Too many variables.) I am not here to judge your assessment of the Marmot warranty.

With a brush made of stiff nylon to scrub off the old coating, and a $10 bottle of seam seal recoat (campmor.com/seam-sealant-recoa..., you can restore that pack to a waterproof, servicable condition without having to resort to using the return policy.

Don't get me wrong: I have returned PLENTY of gear over the years. However, my first inclination is to see whether I can repair or maintain the gear I have. I expect my gear to need maintenance whether it's seen light, heavy, or even no use.

The added bonus of repairing instead of returning is that you don't have to break in your new gear again.

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By wivanoff
Sep 11, 2013
High Exposure
Jake Jones wrote:
Bummer too. I was thinking about getting a limelight tent, now I'm reconsidering.


I have a Limelight 3 and love it. Had it for 5-6 years and it's holding up well so far.

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By Ray Pinpillage
From West Egg
Sep 11, 2013
Middle
Ryan Williams wrote:
And if you were actually a retailer or a manufacturer, you'd know that doing that is basically the same as taking 10% of your top line sales and sending it to the guys down the road. Good companies with strong products don't have to worry about losing money on their "lifetime guarantee" because their products and their service keep customers coming back time after time. Why do we all pay so much money for Patagonia, Arcteryx, etc? Because they are the best. I am a retail manager, and for the last two years I ran a store that was owned by a very large and successful outdoor company. This was NOT a franchise store, it is owned by the company. I was instructed by the company to never EVER let a customer walk out of my store unhappy. "Do whatever it takes" to keep them coming back - and they always do. THAT is why the company dominates their chosen market. As a retailer/manufacturer, if you don't take care of your customers, you lose. Simple as that.


Neither of the companies you mentioned have unconditional lifetime warranties and I've seen both deny returns. Are they good about handing returns? Yes, of course. The OP has slagged Arc'teryx here on MP as well.

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By Woodchuck ATC
Sep 11, 2013
Rock Wars, RRG, 2008
Hmmm, did they ever offer a lifetime warranty on their ropes? My original one from about'75 is hanging in, now as a rope hammock, but would gladly unravel it and send to Marmot if they want it for testing and free replacement these days. I'm all up for that!

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By Will S
From Joshua Tree
Sep 11, 2013
I have a Marmot goretex shell that I've had for 16 years.

I've abused the shit out of it...thur hiked the AT with it, worked hoods in the woods in it, done many mountaineering trips, ice climbs, and alpine climbs in it, used it as my daily rain wear living Portland for years, and it still is my main rain jacket or cold weather shell.

Bomber. Never needed a warranty, because it's the best piece of outdoor clothing I've ever owned.

Had a marmot snythetic puffy. Again as bomber as anything I've ever had. Lasted 8 years before I'd burned so many holes in it and it was so dirty and compressed, I retired it to home remodeling wear...went on to paint the house in it, hang a house full of sheetrock in winter in it, and finally tossed it at 12 yeard old when there was so much caulk on it everything was stuck together.

2 Marmot wizard sny sleeping bags, bomber. Served me very well and lasted as long as any other of the same materials.

On my 2nd driclime windshirt. First one lasted over 10 years, same deal as the puffy, retired to work wear then tossed.

They make good stuff. I've never had to use the warranty, and would rec the brand to anyone.

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By Paul-B
Sep 11, 2013
Flakes of Wrath
I, too, I have had great experiences with marmot products. It seems to be bearbreeder's MO to try and abuse return policies then slander the company on mp. As others have mentioned he's done the same with Arcteryx, and was one of the loudest blatant proponent of the REI "rental" policy. He bragged loudly about it on here, loudly repeating "if it was hurting REI they'd change it!" to anyone that questions the ethics of it (hindsight is 20/20 i guess). I would not take a bit of what bb here says about any company into account when I go to purchase anything.

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By Paul Hunnicutt
From Boulder, CO
Sep 11, 2013
Half Dome
I ordered two new iPhones from Verizon. One black, One white. They sent me two black phones. I called and they said I could exchange a black one at my local store for a white one. They even called to check and see if they had a white one ready. I had some other errands to run, so why not just stop in and exchange the phone (even though I didn't care that much about the color). They told me it would be $35 to exchange when I got there. Really? $35 to fix their mistake. A mistake that I was fixing on my own time. No offer to contact customer service to see if they would refund the $35 (which clearly was a retail store policy). They claim customer service should have informed me. I left with a black phone and if it weren't such a pain in the ass would switch carries. Will seriously consider it next time my contact is up.

Doesn't take much that much to keep a customer. If I treated my clients like that I would be out of business in no time.

Return policy is one reason REI has been so popular....sorry for the thread drift.

Is the delamination really a big deal? It's a pack. Put stuff in it and go climbing.

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By bearbreeder
Sep 11, 2013
Paul-B wrote:
I, too, I have had great experiences with marmot products. It seems to be bearbreeder's MO to try and abuse return policies then slander the company on mp. As others have mentioned he's done the same with Arcteryx, and was one of the loudest blatant proponent of the REI "rental" policy. He bragged loudly about it on here, loudly repeating "if it was hurting REI they'd change it!" to anyone that questions the ethics of it. I would not take a bit of what bb here says about any company into account when I go to purchase anything.


"First of all let me say that I really like the way my Arc'Teryx R320
fits and feels. However, the quality is terrible. Here's a letter
I sent to them last year. Sorry it's so long.

They sent me a brand new harness, however, the fundamental problem
was NOT corrected and I expect it to wear-out quickly. "
- John Byrnes, Administrator

"I have had the R320 for about two years. Great harness that I used primarily for outdoor trad and some sport. It did not crease at all as some of the R300 users have reported. It's has two weaknesses: not great for extended hanging and the tie in points wear a bit fast. My leg loop in particular is now showing the orange wear material and it's retired. Hopefully, the R300 is beefier in the belay loops. " -Joseph P. Crotty

"Here's the final word on my harness and relationship with Arcteryx harnesses in general. I guess they must be fed up with returns/warrantees because this is what they had to say.

"None of our harnesses should be expected to last for more than 200 days of use. Especially if you are climbing outside because that wears them out faster."

So I guess my 275 days was really pushing it. No warranty. I definitely will not be buying another harness where 200 days of use is supposedly the lifetime of the $150 I dropped." -
Bryan Hall

"I had the R300 and the bottom belay loop blew out in less than 3 months. I climb about an average of 3-4 days a week. When I say blew out I mean the webbing was worn through exposing the indicator. I'm not sure how much this compromised the integrity of the harness, but it didn't give me a warm fuzzy so I eventually got rid of it. Was it comfortable for sport climbing? Heck yeah! It was the most comfortable harness I've ever worn, but for $150 I went back to the $75 harness and I still have worn my belay loop out since switching back. "

My suggestion is that if you really want one goto REI. When the belay loop blows out (assuming they haven't fixed this problem) you won't have to dick around with the hassle of sending it back to Arc'Teryx when you can just drop by your local REI. -jarthur

"Also, to chime in regarding the durability of these harnesses, I have owned my r-320 for 3 years. Absolutely love the thing, except for a couple issues regarding durability. This is my third harness.

Two things have worn out for me. 1) All the elastic stuff everywhere wore out waaaay too fast. Minor issue. Hopefully they'll be using a more robust elastic in the new generation. 2) Unfortunately, I have seriously troubling wear through the reinforcement of the rope attachment points on the leg loops and waist belt. 3 years of hard use, but still surprised to see something like that. I'm sending it in to arc'teryx. Maybe I'll get lucky and they'll replace it."
-shoo

"Wore through my bottom loop(orange indicator showing) in about a year. If I don't get another one fo' free, they will never have my business again." -Phil Lauffen

'Arc’teryx customer service is amazing. When my R-260 (my previous harness) tie-in point failed after a little less than two years of use, I sent it back to them. I was told that’s an average life-span for a harness. However, my previous Arc’teryx harness, the Vapor, was purchased circa 1996 and still looks nearly new. I told them I was disappointed and that the quality seemed to be headed south if it fails this quickly. They offered to replace my harness. But with no more of that previous year’s model in stock, they made another offer. The result? A brand new R-260-LT. " - ACassebeer

those were just the ones exclusively on MP that i could find with a 3 min search ... now to be fair to dead bird, until recently they seemed to have replaced it just fine, course you had to ship it in and wait a few weeks ...

though the latest one had the "200 day" harness life thingamajig

;)

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By ediza
From Berkeley, California
Sep 11, 2013
Take the REI Return Policy change, for example.

Exactly. REI's new policy is the perfect example of people taking advantage of good thing.

I won't deny that a 'lifetime warranty' can be deceiving. It does come off like it's your lifetime. It's not. It's the lifetime of the materials. And materials is where I get hung up...

We all know that we need to replace the nylon on our cams and slings every 2-5 years (depending on your viewpoint). So why is a nylon backpack or jacket any different? Now I am not saying that I only expect one or two years out of my jacket - I want a whole lot more life than that! But why would I suspect even for a moment that my three year old jacket would be just as good as the day it was when it was new? Does your car drive the same as it did the day you drove it off the lot years after?

Take this argument one step further and ten years out... I would never climb on a 10 year old climbing rope but I might tie down a load in my pickup truck. So apply that same logic to a jacket or a backpack and ask why it isn't okay for the nylon to wear out, but it is okay on my climbing gear.

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By Malcolm Daly
From Boulder, CO
Sep 11, 2013
Mitch Musci wrote:
... Brands like Osprey, Outdoor Research, and Patagonia have amazing warranties...what is preventing Marmot from following suit?


Osprey, Outdoor Research and Patagonia are privately owned. Marmot is owned by Jarden Corporation which own over 100 consumer product brands including Sunbeam, K2, Coleman, Mr. Coffee and Oster.

I don't mean to harsh on Marmot. They've done a pretty good job of holding on to their specialty brand and keeping their products true to their users while honoring their quarterly commitments to their shareholders on the NYSE. They trade as JAH on the exchange.

Mal

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By Mitch Musci
Sep 11, 2013
No need to start a flame war here. The point is that his pack delaminated without much use, potentially depicting a warranty issue, and Marmot proudly decided that it's user error and offers a measly discount. The issue is not whether he is taking advantage of the company. Who knows, maybe he is...maybe he rubbed that shit with sand paper until it exploded, then sent it in to stir up some chaos. Obviously he would be a d-bag for doing that but that is another discussion...

The issue at stake here is smart business. Any smart company should look at that pack, notice that it looks almost brand new aside from the warranty issue, and swallow their pride. If the pack was beat up and well-used then that is an entirely different discussion.

Would it be that hard for Marmot to attempt a repair on the pack? What if they charged him shipping one way, threw some fancy tape on there/seam sealant, and shipped it back to him. Maybe the repair would last 6 months, maybe 10 years. But at least that shows the customer they tried to make things right. At the very least, Marmot owes him an explanation of why they can't fix it and maybe some advice on how to repair it himself.

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By 20 kN
From Hawaii
Sep 11, 2013
Paul Hunnicutt wrote:
I ordered two new iPhones from Verizon. One black, One white. They sent me two black phones. I called and they said I could exchange a black one at my local store for a white one. They even called to check and see if they had a white one ready. I had some other errands to run, so why not just stop in and exchange the phone (even though I didn't care that much about the color). They told me it would be $35 to exchange when I got there. Really? $35 to fix their mistake. A mistake that I was fixing on my own time. No offer to contact customer service to see if they would refund the $35 (which clearly was a retail store policy). They claim customer service should have informed me. I left with a black phone and if it weren't such a pain in the ass would switch carries. Will seriously consider it next time my contact is up. Doesn't take much that much to keep a customer. If I treated my clients like that I would be out of business in no time.

Precisely. That seems to be something many brass-plated CFOs seem to forget. I attend a university that focuses very heavily on business model and corporate structure. If there was only one thing I learned in the entire course of my degree it is that customer service is king. Without it your business is going to be in the shitter. It takes far more money to recruit new customers than retain old ones. Too many businesses are thinking short-term without considering the long-term consequences. You might pay that $35 exchange fee, but Verizon might very well lose out on $10,000+ over the course of your lifetime from lost service by failing to keep you happy.

As you said, it doesent take that much to keep a customer happy, but it is very easy to lose a customer, and his or her money, from near-sided short-term thinking.

As far as 0 and 00 Master Cams go, I too have had problems with the cam stops ripping off. Some people believe it is a warranty-covered issue. Others do not. Regardless, I believe the problem is the result of an engineering defect. The cam stops were poorly designed which resulted in a product that is not holding up in the field as well as comparable products. So, should consumers be entitled to a replacement? That is a hard question, but I would say yes they should be entitled to an exchange if the product is not functioning as it was designed.

Also, it is normally in the best interest for a climbing equipment manufacturer to keep their customers happy, or at the minimum give the appearance that they are doing everything they can. Whenever a product fails there is always a very serious concern for liability. If a cam fails and a climber gets hurt, the climber already has a reasonably strong case for a lawsuit because the product failed to do what it was designed to do and someone was injured as a result, which is especially a concern in The United States where liability laws favor the consumer.

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By Ryan Nevius
From The Range of Light
Sep 11, 2013
Mt. Agassiz
Mitch Musci wrote:
The issue at stake here is smart business. Any smart company should look at that pack, notice that it looks almost brand new aside from the warranty issue, and swallow their pride.


See my post above about "smart business." The move they made may actually be the best move. We don't know, and won't unless we have inside info about what Metolius, as a company, is going through.

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By Ian Stewart
Sep 11, 2013
Ryan Nevius wrote:
But this could also be a situation where we're seeing people think that goods should last forever, even in a closet. Ropes get old...sitting. Materials start to break down...while sitting. Same story with some adhesives.


I've always been under the impression that a "lifetime warranty" means the product SHOULD last a lifetime if properly cared for, and if not the manufacturer will replace/fix it. If an adhesive failed after a few years of sitting in a closet, that's certainly something that should be covered under a lifetime warranty...

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By Mitch Musci
Sep 11, 2013
Ryan, I think you make a very good point, however I'm not sure I can see how Marmot's reaction in this case could be the right one. True, they could be joining REI in tightening up their policy, but my argument says they should have put forth more effort to work with him (IE attempt a repair).

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By Ryan Nevius
From The Range of Light
Sep 11, 2013
Mt. Agassiz
Mitch Musci wrote:
I'm not sure I can see how Marmot's reaction in this case could be the right one.


They may be struggling in the short term, and need to avoid any losses in the present (doubtful).

Maybe tightening up the policy will actually save them money in the long run...even if they lose a few customers, such as BB. Similar to REI. I agree with you though. In most cases, doing anything and everything for the customer is the best decision you can make, in the long run.

I wish we had more insight, from the other side. Unfortunately, that's unlikely to happen.

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By Ben Brotelho
From Albany, NY
Sep 11, 2013
Epic free solo with a pack on
Dude I'm tellin you...Facebook! Everyone can see pictures you put up, they'll have someone take care of a disgruntled customer when everyone can see him. I've had it work with a couple companies

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