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Man Dies Swinging From Utah Rock Arch
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By Micahisaac
From Longmont, CO
Mar 28, 2013
soloing Boulder Canyon Upper Falls

Clifton Santiago wrote:
Emotional reactions to Darwin and age of majority have nothing to do with this. If you've climbed long enough, hell, if you've LIVED long enough, there have been many instances where sheer luck kept you off the mortician's slab for some imprudent action, and out of the internet forums for some jackass to suggest your genes' didn't pass misinformed muster. All the scientific theory and bullshit ad hoc examples for determinism based on deficiency are poor armor against the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune to which any adventurer subjects themselves to. To disparage this young man's legacy and worth for a single instance of miscalculation, clouded no doubt by spirited enthusiasm, is cowardly and demonstrative of a spiritual shallowness. Good luck to all you who shroud yourselves in the belief that something like this could never happen to you because you're so smart, or possessed of superior genes. Take it to Vegas. EDIT: We all make mistakes when we're young, some survive the learning curve, some don't. There but for the grace of whatever go all of us...



bravo Clifton. So many of us could easily have been this young man.


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By EricSchmidt
Mar 28, 2013

Clifton Santiago wrote:
Emotional reactions to Darwin and age of majority have nothing to do with this. If you've climbed long enough, hell, if you've LIVED long enough, there have been many instances where sheer luck kept you off the mortician's slab for some imprudent action, and out of the internet forums for some jackass to suggest your genes' didn't pass misinformed muster. All the scientific theory and bullshit ad hoc examples for determinism based on deficiency are poor armor against the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune to which any adventurer subjects themselves to. To disparage this young man's legacy and worth for a single instance of miscalculation, clouded no doubt by spirited enthusiasm, is cowardly and demonstrative of a spiritual shallowness. Good luck to all you who shroud yourselves in the belief that something like this could never happen to you because you're so smart, or possessed of superior genes. Take it to Vegas. EDIT: We all make mistakes when we're young, some survive the learning curve, some don't. There but for the grace of whatever go all of us...


Holy shit... Does thesaurus.com charge you for that or are you on the monthly plan?


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By Clifton Santiago
Mar 28, 2013

EricSchmidt wrote:
Holy shit... Does thesaurus.com charge you for that or are you on the monthly plan?

Tu stultus es.


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By BGBingham
Mar 28, 2013
night ice

EricSchmidt wrote:
Holy shit... Does thesaurus.com charge you for that or are you on the monthly plan?


I don't see any thesaurus words in that. It's just good writing. Get over it.


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By SDY
Mar 28, 2013

EricSchmidt wrote:
Holy shit... Does thesaurus.com charge you for that or are you on the monthly plan?



Typical Eric, nothing but juvenile insults, if the words are too hard, perhaps find another website.


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By SDY
Mar 28, 2013

Clifton Santiago wrote:
Tu stultus es.


Bravo again Clifton, I believe this should become the new standard response to ES.


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By Kenny Thompson
From woodfords, california
Mar 28, 2013
gorge

to much screaming


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By TWK
Mar 29, 2013

Clifton Santiago wrote:
Emotional reactions to Darwin and age of majority have nothing to do with this. If you've climbed long enough, hell, if you've LIVED long enough, there have been many instances where sheer luck kept you off the mortician's slab for some imprudent action, and out of the internet forums for some jackass to suggest your genes' didn't pass misinformed muster. All the scientific theory and bullshit ad hoc examples for determinism based on deficiency are poor armor against the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune to which any adventurer subjects themselves to. To disparage this young man's legacy and worth for a single instance of miscalculation, clouded no doubt by spirited enthusiasm, is cowardly and demonstrative of a spiritual shallowness. Good luck to all you who shroud yourselves in the belief that something like this could never happen to you because you're so smart, or possessed of superior genes. Take it to Vegas. EDIT: We all make mistakes when we're young, some survive the learning curve, some don't. There but for the grace of whatever go all of us...


Even though I agree with you, I think you're wrong.

I would have never tied myself to the end of a 140 foot rope and jumped off into only 130 feet of air. The real tragedy is that he had it coming.


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By Andrew Gram
Administrator
From Salt Lake City, UT
Mar 29, 2013
Andrew Gram

I think that idiotic frat boy video pretty directly lead to this. It was predictable and inevitable.

I feel awful for the poor dead kid, his family, and his friends. One of the bad unintended consequences of posting about things on the internet that require real competence like rope jumps, big wall climbing, soloing, etc. is that folks who haven't put in the time to learn about these things think they are accessible. Sometimes it is better to keep things on the down low, or at least don't do something really stupid like make a frat boy youtube video with an awful semi-hip hop soundtrack to make things look easy to do. Judgement is in short supply in the internet age.


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By rob.calm
From Loveland, Colorado
Mar 29, 2013
Mother #1 on the Nautilus at Vedauwoo. Rob is calm on this happy offwidth

"Clifton Santiago wrote:
Tu stultus es.


Bravo again Clifton, I believe this should become the new standard response to ES."

In a forum such as this, the less formal "tu stultus" would seem more appropriate.

Gratias et valete bene!
RobertusPunctumPacificus


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By Clifton Santiago
Mar 29, 2013

TWK wrote:
Even though I agree with you, I think you're wrong. I would have never tied myself to the end of a 140 foot rope and jumped off into only 130 feet of air. The real tragedy is that he had it coming.

That assumes a lot. I think what happened is this poor guy had just enough experience to figure everything out, except rope stretch. This is itself an assumption, but it fits within the most generous, and I believe reasonable model.

While you might not do what this young man did, whatever he did, you might do something different. You might misjudge the angle of pull on a sketchy anchor, only to have your partner blow the low crux... you might misjudge the angle of a screw in shitty ice 20 feet above your last shitty placement, and come off for no reason... you might run your rope over a sharp edge, and whip... or your friend might.

What the crux of all this bickering is, for me, at least, is that there is a certain segment of the MP population that want to make this poor kid out to be Wile E. Coyote, that tragedy only strikes the comically imbecilic, and assume the most simplistic explanation for this tragedy.

I've been climbing awhile, backcountry skiing longer, and work everyday at a very dangerous occupation where I've seen many accidents. I've noticed that there is a certain segment of people in each of these activities, when an accident occurs, they tend to defame the victim for being XYZ deficient in an area the accuser deems obvious, and therefore avoidable. It is a rationalization talisman against the fact that shit happens.

We all fuck up, we all make mistakes, we've all come a whisker away from having someone on the internet talk about how stupid we were for not XYZ...

WE ALL HAVE IT COMING


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By Clifton Santiago
Mar 29, 2013

rob.calm wrote:
"Clifton Santiago wrote: Tu stultus es. Bravo again Clifton, I believe this should become the new standard response to ES." In a forum such as this, the less formal "tu stultus" would seem more appropriate. Gratias et valete bene! RobertusPunctumPacificus

Bene!

Mentes lente augescent cito extinguuntur.


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By bearbreeder
Mar 29, 2013

Clifton Santiago wrote:
I've been climbing awhile, backcountry skiing longer, and work everyday at a very dangerous occupation where I've seen many accidents. I've noticed that there is a certain segment of people in each of these activities, when an accident occurs, they tend to defame the victim for being XYZ deficient in an area the accuser deems obvious, and therefore avoidable. It is a rationalization talisman against the fact that shit happens. We all fuck up, we all make mistakes, we've all come a whisker away from having someone on the internet talk about how stupid we were for not XYZ... WE ALL HAVE IT COMING


first ... if you throw a pack off a cliff without people on the ground checking to make sure someone isnt walking under there ... and someone almost gets smacked ... its pure recklessness and disregard for others ... if you see me throw packs off the top of a crag, call me out on it ... or anyone else for that matter

second ... if you are rigging stuff not just for yourself, but for others lives, make damn sure you know what you are doing ... what if someone else had jumped first? ... the same thing with climbing, if you are going to bring people up a climb .... be sure of what you are doing if they are going to trust you and your ropework

thats all there is to it ...

take all the risks you want, whether something happens to you is your business ... but dont make that choice for others ...


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By TWK
Mar 29, 2013

Clifton Santiago wrote:
the fact that shit happens. WE ALL HAVE IT COMING


Can't argue with that--nobody gets out of this alive.


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By MJMobes
From The land of steady habits
Mar 29, 2013
modern man

TWK wrote:
Can't argue with that--nobody gets out of this alive.


I'm probably halfway to the grave.

Human nature is predictable in situations like this, half the people are all sorry and talking about praying to a God while the other half is entertained by peoples foolishness even if the result is death. Call it what you want, Yin & Yang, good and evil, smart and stupid.....nothing is going to change, we will always have saints and assholes


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By David Sahalie
From on the road again
Mar 29, 2013

Andrew Gram wrote:
Sometimes it is better to keep things on the down low, .



I agree. I've done this sort of thing, but it was before the age of GoPros where everything has to be documented, put to a beat, and edited like a Mountain Dew, Monster, Code Red commercial.

I thought the video was well done, and while I would do, or even encourage this type of thing verbally among my friends, promoting it to the public could have indirectly led to what happened.

People die in unfortunate ways all the time, but would there be a waiting line on this arch if there was never a glamorous video?

Maybe a parallel would be smoking. A certain number of teenagers are going to start smoking regardless of warnings, but advertising targeted at teens is now seen as abhorrent.

In some circles this idea of accepting that a group is engaging in a risky behavior, but then working to minimize the risk to themselves without banning the activity itself is called 'harm reduction.' Unfortunately, the powers that be will move straight to making the activity illegal if we don't minimize the potential impact ourselves.

Someone mentioned BASE jumping earlier, but the equipment for BASE jumping is much harder to obtain, and the level of knowledge and competence required should be obvious. A giant rope fall/swing? sure, everyone has done that over a pond on a summer afternoon. So, just go buy a bigger rope, and have at it, all the cool kids in the video are doing it!


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By Rob T
Mar 29, 2013

Andrew Gram wrote:
I think that idiotic frat boy video pretty directly lead to this. It was predictable and inevitable. I feel awful for the poor dead kid, his family, and his friends. One of the bad unintended consequences of posting about things on the internet that require real competence like rope jumps, big wall climbing, soloing, etc. is that folks who haven't put in the time to learn about these things think they are accessible. Sometimes it is better to keep things on the down low, or at least don't do something really stupid like make a frat boy youtube video with an awful semi-hip hop soundtrack to make things look easy to do. Judgement is in short supply in the internet age.


Agreed on most of the above, but i keep coming back to the fact that soloing and even leading are a bit more self limiting. if someone sees Honnold on Half Dome and wants to try it themselves, most of the population is going to lose the desire to do so about 20' up the route(still in the realm of orthopedic consequences). likewise with most forms of climbing, most run out of courage and strength before they get high enough to kill themselves.

With a rope jump, all they need to do is push themselves past that one moment of doubt. as said above, it's just a bigger version of what many of us have done as children(even if it is much harder to establish safely).


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By Brian in SLC
Mar 29, 2013
Climbing in Smuggler's Notch

Rob T wrote:
...(still in the realm of orthopedic consequences).


Hmm. I like that. Great route name, "in the realm of orthopedic consequences."


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By Rob T
Mar 29, 2013

from my mother's warnings in my own stupid years; "if you're going to do something stupid, keep it in the realm of the orthopod, not the neurologist(or mortician if she was in a bad mood)"


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By Andrew Gram
Administrator
From Salt Lake City, UT
Mar 29, 2013
Andrew Gram

Rob T wrote:
Agreed on most of the above, but i keep coming back to the fact that soloing and even leading are a bit more self limiting. if someone sees Honnold on Half Dome and wants to try it themselves, most of the population is going to lose the desire to do so about 20' up the route(still in the realm of orthopedic consequences). likewise with most forms of climbing, most run out of courage and strength before they get high enough to kill themselves. With a rope jump, all they need to do is push themselves past that one moment of doubt. as said above, it's just a bigger version of what many of us have done as children(even if it is much harder to establish safely).


Yeah, I didn't mean to imply that just run of the mill folks are going to go out and do a wall. I meant that info on the internet has taken a lot of mystique out of big wall climbing, so climbers without enough experience are going out and getting themselves into trouble. Certainly rope swings are a unique case that will appeal to a broader audience.


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By Jack Ubaek
From tucson
Mar 29, 2013
Alana B

Clifton Santiago wrote:
All the scientific theory and bullshit ad hoc examples for determinism based on deficiency are poor armor against the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune to which any adventurer subjects themselves to.

this was hardly outrageous fortune. outrageous fortune is having your rope severed by a meteor or your hand wedged between a boulder and a chasm wall. this was a gross miscalculation hardly deserving of the level of epistemological analysis that has ensued. And to what example of "determinism based on deficiency" being used as armor are you referring? I don't see anyone using his ignorance of rope dynamics as "armor". I only see people pointing out the obvious, albeit in an insensitive manner, but if that's what you're upset about, that's something different entirely,


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