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Lowering out the Haul Bag
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By cheifitj
From Boulder, Colorado
Jan 5, 2010
Casual Route Pitch 3  <br />Photo by Mark Cushman
So I have come across a recommendation to not carry a separate lower out line for the haul bag. It has been recommended that when the leader stops at an anchor just tie the haul bag in to the haul line as it is with a butterfly and use the left over haul line to lower the bag out. (only works if not a full length pitch, in which you have to carry a separate line if needed.)

My question is... If you were to use this method, (eliminating the short lower out line for the haulbag), would you untie the end of the main haul line from the haul bag so as to not create a loop that could get stuck while the bag is being lifted? This would also give you more line to lower the bag out if needed.

BUT, I have to accept the risk of untying the haul bag from the end of the haul line multiple times and shouldn't I never have to untie the haul bag from the haul line if all is going well?

-Jon

  • *disclaimer** I am still new to this discipline.

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By Darren Mabe
From Flagstaff, AZ
Jan 5, 2010
wham bam hand jam. Wrapping up the final moves of Twist of Fate, Oak Creek Canyon. <br /> <br />photo: Blake McCord
cheifitj wrote:
would you untie the end of the main haul line from the haul bag so as to not create a loop that could get stuck while the bag is being lifted?


would it even get stuck anyway if it was in terrain where it had to be lowered-out in the first place? (ie. wicked steep..) or do you mean long traversing pitches?

cheifitj wrote:
accept the risk of untying the haul bag

just dont drop it and you will be just fine.
;)

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By J. Thompson
From denver, co
Jan 5, 2010
Trundling a death block. Photo by Dan Gambino.
To answer your question....yes it is best to untie the bag from the end of the haul line.
By tying the bag into different points on the haul line you also spread out the wear on your haul line.

That being said the only time I use a lower out of any kind is when the pitch is extremely traversing...and sometimes if it's really steep.

I don't use the whole "docking tether" method.
Instead try a Yates Adjustable daisy chain attached to your haul bag.
It makes getting your bag on and off the anchor easy as pie...

josh

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By Darren Mabe
From Flagstaff, AZ
Jan 5, 2010
wham bam hand jam. Wrapping up the final moves of Twist of Fate, Oak Creek Canyon. <br /> <br />photo: Blake McCord
let'er fly

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By John McNamee
Administrator
From Littleton, CO
Jan 5, 2010
Artist Tears P3
If the bag isn't going to hit anything, just let it go...

Like Josh said a lower out line is only needed in large lower outs and you will be able to figure this out from the topo or beta.

Adjustable Daisy is the best way to go as well. Much easier than dealing with a dedicated docking tether. However, much sure you understand how to use a cord to dock the pig in case you need to use it one day.

KISS.

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By Kevin Stricker
From Evergreen, CO
Jan 5, 2010
I'm going against the grain here....on a hundred foot pitch why would you want to haul your bag + 100 feet of rope? Sounds like wasted effort to me. Also it's much easier to get all the free haul line organized before you start to haul than after. I use a docking tether, usually an old cordalette that I tie a butterfly knot 5 feet from one end. Now you have 5 feet to tie your bag to the anchor and 10-15 feet to lower the bag out. If you need to lower your bag out farther consider using your lead line. The key is to get the haulbag on it's journey as quick as possible.

It'd the little things that turn a 3 day fun outing into a 5 day mini-epic. KISS is king when big walling.

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By cheifitj
From Boulder, Colorado
Jan 5, 2010
Casual Route Pitch 3  <br />Photo by Mark Cushman
Thanks everyone for your responses.

When the terrain is super steep I would be more inclined to just let the bag go, traversing is more of what I am thinking about.

As I am still new to this discipline I will likely only be climbing routes that I have good beta/topo information and if I had to carry a extra long cord for this purpose I would. It is the more standard use that I am asking about. (It probably wont be an issue at all, but I like to imagine scenarios in my head while still on the ground and figure it out for later.)

Kevin. Your statement about using an ~20 foot tether to dock and lower out is what I have originally learned to do from my buddy who has started to get me into Aid/Wall climbing. I currently have a standard daisy attached to my haul bag for anchoring as well, but perhaps I will switch it over to an adjustable and try that out.

Thanks again folks.

-Jon

What does KISS stand for?

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By broppler
From Oakland
Jan 5, 2010
dinner ledge
cheifitj wrote:
My question is... If you were to use this method, (eliminating the short lower out line for the haulbag), would you untie the end of the main haul line from the haul bag so as to not create a loop that could get stuck while the bag is being lifted? This would also give you more line to lower the bag out if needed. BUT, I have to accept the risk of untying the haul bag from the end of the haul line multiple times and shouldn't I never have to untie the haul bag from the haul line if all is going well? -Jon **disclaimer** I am still new to this discipline.


Jon,

If you want to use the haul line as a lower out line, rig a far end hauling system. supertopo.com/images/temp/FarE... That way, the knot will never be under load and will be easy to tie and untie.

And yes, untie the end of the rope so it is a single strand hanging beneath the pigs. As long as the bag is always tied in to the haul line, you arent risking anything.

Otherwise, carry a lower out line.

Docking tethers are easy to rig and lower out on. If you have to lift the pigs, youre doing something wrong.

Why do you guys like to use adjustable daisys over cord?

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By J. Thompson
From denver, co
Jan 6, 2010
Trundling a death block. Photo by Dan Gambino.
brooks8970 wrote:
Why do you guys like to use adjustable daisys over cord?



Try it.

It's like a 4ft 2:1....you tie nothing and unload alot of weight, quickly.

After you unweight the line, tie a quick clove into the power point to back it up.

It seriously makes things easier.

The munter mule docking tehter works fine...but is slow and outdated.
Use an Adjustable daisy(or 2) and enjoy the benefits of modern technology!

josh

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By broppler
From Oakland
Jan 6, 2010
dinner ledge
JLP wrote:
I have to say that looks really dumb and unsafe for anything but a light load. Hauling over edges, sharp teeth, low capacity of a mini-trax...yada. It also seems kind of silly to rig something like this instead of using a 20' scrap of rope, even if it was safe.


Far end hauling is used extensively by soloists (think heavy loads) because it allows you to haul from the bag in bad hauling terrain (think chimneys, edges, etc). It also has the added benefit of making the haul line easily available for lower outs since the knot is never weighted. Back it up.

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By Dustin B
From Steamboat
Jan 6, 2010
It's always a party.
We use a 65 or 70m haul line and tie the pigs in 30-45 feet from the end leaving a tail about the same length. We just leave it like this for the entire climb., only once did we have a haul that was too long and needed us to retie the pig. We use this tail to dock with the munter mule knot. I don't see how it could be slow and outdated cause the knot takes like 2 seconds to tie, plus when it comes time to lower out the munter makes things a breeze. I haven't tried the adj. daisy method yet though, never had a reaon to.

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By Russ Walling
From www.FishProducts.com
Jan 6, 2010
Russ
JLP wrote:
Anything that involves you lifting the bag for any reason - clipping in or clipping out - just flat out isn't going to work when you start actually hauling an appreciable amount of gear. An adjustable daisy sounds like a disaster as well. Those things don't hold squat.


That there is prime bullshit.

Some manufacturers (hint hint) haul bags have had an adjustable daisy as a docking point as standard issue for years.

As to the OP.... lower out lines are route dependent. If your chosen route has a bunch of sideways action, take 40 ft of mystery cord. If not, and you only have perhaps one lowerout or so, just use the haul line tail, a loop of the line you are about to jug, or whatever you have hanging around. Steepness and obstacles will also dictate just what needs to be done.

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By EMM
Jan 6, 2010
30ft of 8mm tag line connected to bags and the line always hanging of haul bag(no need to mess with the line don't coil) leave both lines attatched. Anchor bags with munter mule on 8mm. tie bags of with haul line for back up. If you learn the munter mule it is incredibly fast and even if you are just letting the bags fly the munter allows you to never have to lift the bags, just pull and release.

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By cheifitj
From Boulder, Colorado
Jan 6, 2010
Casual Route Pitch 3  <br />Photo by Mark Cushman
Again, Thanks to everyone for posting.

The ~20 foot tether cord with a MMO (backed up with the haul line and daisy) is what I have currently learned to do and use in practice.

I would have to agree that the MMO is pretty quick and not sure why you feel it is outdated.

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By Rob Dillon
Jan 6, 2010
"outdated" is a strange criterion indeed. Most knots have been in use for decades, if not thousands of years--are they 'outdated'?

OP, what you learned is fine. If you run into problems with it, they will likely stem from using an inadequate length of rope for a given lower-out. If this is foreseeable, bring a longer cord for that situation.

Don't drop the pig.
Don't tie hard knots for big loads.
Stay clipped in.

Oh yeah:

Keep It Simple, Stupid.

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By Erik W
From Bay Area, CA
Jan 6, 2010
North face of Ama Dablam - taken on approach to Kongma La.
+1 munter mule on 5m length of rope/cord

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By John McNamee
Administrator
From Littleton, CO
Jan 6, 2010
Artist Tears P3
Give the adjustable daisy a try for anchoring the haul bag.

Russ hit it perfectly.

Cheifitj,

If you want to shoot me an email I can send you some pics of how I set up my haul bags.

Cheers

John

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By J. Thompson
From denver, co
Jan 6, 2010
Trundling a death block. Photo by Dan Gambino.
Rob Dillon wrote:
"outdated" is a strange criterion indeed.


Agreed...Outdated was not the correct term. I was alittle drunk!

The ADJ. Daisy is; incredibly easy, reduces overall cluster and takes not lifting if done right.

I'll never disagree that the "docking tether" MM is a great way to anchor your bags/ get them on and off the haul.

But if you haven't tried the ADJ. daisy you should. There's a reason that people like Fish have incorporated it into their systems.

josh

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By "Pass the Pitons" Pete Zabrok
From Oakville, Ontario
Jan 8, 2010
Left to right - me, Sam Adams, Thomas Huber, Alex Huber
Lots of good ideas up there, all of which will work well in a given situations. The Better Way is whatever works best for you in your situation.

Adjustable daisies are quite convenient for docking your pig, but you don't get the 2:1 mechanical advantage on the adjustable daisy in this situation of docking your pig, like you do when you are lead climbing [think about it].

But there are two situations where you could get hosed when docking your pig with an adjustable daisy:

1. A very traversing pitch whereby the haul line goes upwards on a diagonal, rather than straight up. In this instance, you could release your adjustable daisy to its full length, only to find it still rather weighted since your taut haul line is not pulling straight up.

2. You're soloing. In this instance, you would have to tighten up your haul line enough so that when you undock the pig, there is not so much rope stretch that your pig doesn't end up stuck on the end of the adjustable daisy. This would be tricky if you are not using a static haul line, for instance. But if you were using a Far End Hauler as pictured above, you could tighten up the haul line pretty well.

Speaking of which, here is your Dr. Piton Big Wall Camping Tip of the Day:

Put a dedicated adjustable daisy on top of your portaledge. This makes it super-easy and quick to adjust the height of your ledge when you are camping, so you can get it beside your pig[s] in just the position you like it. Try it! And when you find out what a bitchin' idea it is, and how much time and effort you save from not having to faff around with your ledge, you can gimme a beer on the bridge.

But I'll have to share it with Kate, as it was her idea!

I use a dedicated Docking Tether in all situations. {shrug} Nothing wrong with a 20-30' hunk of dedicated cord that serves as Docking Tether + Lower-Out Line - as you like.

A standard daisy is ok as a backup to your docking tether, but sooner or later you are going to forget about it, and find yourself hosed.

The Far End Hauler works a lot better with a swivel beneath the inverted hauling device! But in theory it will work as shown. The Far End Hauler has saved my ass solo hauling more times than I can remember. It's the bomb, for sure. Amazingly, the inverted hauling device is no more likely to get stuck when hauling than a rope protector, strange but true. Plus, I almost always have my ledge flagged above it.

A butterfly knot is very easy to untie, hugely easier than a figure 8 on a bight, and it is also about 5% stronger, too.

Beware of tying into the middle of the haul line in certain instances where you would leave a long tail of rope dangling beneath your pig. "Tail" not "loop"! On a windy day this is an invitation to disaster should it blow horizontally and hang up irretrievably on a flake.

Tying into the middle of the rope is a pain in the ass sometimes because you have to slide your knot protector all the way up your haul line. If you have a long tail of rope but don't want to leave it dangling, and don't need it to lower off because your pig won't hit anything if you just let 'er fly, then bag it, and clip the bag onto the pig. Just remember to clip the bag ABOVE and not BELOW the swivel!

Another tip: While you only need one rope bag per lead rope, it is extremely convenient to have TWO rope bags for each haul line, one on top, and one on the bottom.

Everyone should post while drunk from time to time.

Don't drop the pig. Don't do as I do, do as I say. [my dad always said that]

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By Spider Savage
Jan 8, 2010
Spider in Taboose
Pete, you're needed back at the party over on ST.

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By Darren Mabe
From Flagstaff, AZ
Jan 11, 2010
wham bam hand jam. Wrapping up the final moves of Twist of Fate, Oak Creek Canyon. <br /> <br />photo: Blake McCord
"Pass the Pitons" Pete Zabrok wrote:
Everyone should post while drunk from time to time.

um, is there any other way to post?

FLAG


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