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little gear and falling...
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Oct 12, 2010
Kilroy
got a nice climb i've been looking at recently that i'd like to tackle on lead...problem is theres about a 15' section that only has placements for meager gear. like size 0-00 tcu stuff..i was wondering if anybody had any tips for little gear such as this, would you place and whip on it? its a vertical placement which is nice, but still has me worried as i thought the 0 and 00 are aid pieces.

also any other advice as far as small gear climbing goes would be crazy helpful, this is pushing my lead climbing limit as far as gear goes and could use all the help i can get!
thanks!
Kilroywashere!
From Harrisonburg, Virginia
Joined Oct 27, 2009
287 points
Oct 12, 2010
just teasin' the sharks...
There is very little error tolerance on the smaller sizes. Just place them well and they should hold some whips. Dusty
From Fort Collins
Joined Apr 28, 2008
260 points
Oct 12, 2010
Myself placing a a blue/yellow offset MC to protec...
add a screamer and double up pieces or try to put in micro nuts or ball nutz

T
rock_fencer
From Columbia, SC
Joined Dec 20, 2009
253 points
Oct 12, 2010
ball-nuts, bro, ball-nuts Cota
From Bend OR
Joined Dec 12, 2008
1 points
Oct 13, 2010
Axes glistening in the sun
I took about about 10 footer on a #2 bd nut many years ago at the gunks. I was surprised and thought for sure it would pop. "H"
From Manitou Springs
Joined Feb 13, 2006
59 points
Oct 13, 2010
photo by Forest Woodward
If you place them well in good rock, small cams should easily hold falls.

A few tips to convince yourself to go for it:

Place BOMBER gear before the thin section. I don't know how far the ground is, but a 30'er isn't necessarily horrible.

If your climbing a continuous thin crack, place a piece every body-length. Then you'll be on TR half the time and never be facing a significant fall.

If the placements are more intermittent, load them up with multiple pieces, maybe equalize and throw a screamer on the whole mess.

If the crack allows, place small wires. These are usually stronger that the equivalent size TCU.


Go send that rig!
-Scott
Scott Bennett
Joined Jan 9, 2008
1,171 points
Oct 13, 2010
took a 30 footer on a #1 Metolius tcu, held just fine. Just need to asses the rock that it's placed in and know your gear placements. If you have that much doubt, before you do your route, find a small crack that you think may be similar in size and bounce on it as though it was aid. that should give you some idea, within reason, as to the ability of holding a fall.

My two pennies.

Juan
no1nprtclr
From Front range Colorado
Joined Oct 31, 2006
71 points
Oct 13, 2010
Oregon Coast Bouldering
What kind of rock?

Took a 20+ footer onto a 00-000 mastercam offset a few weeks ago in granite...

just make sure its snug, I feel micro cam placements are more secure when they are placed a bit tighter than you would a normal cam.
CalmAdrenaline
From SL,UT
Joined Jan 22, 2008
129 points
Oct 13, 2010
Kilroy
its in Sandstone, western Va sandstone, pretty solid but i'll be checking for hollow flakes before i place anything

bad thing is there is a chance of decking if the thin stuff pulls.

how long do screamers extend? i like the sound but the route is where the thin stuff goes in, if the sling is long(such as an extended screamer) and theres enough slack in the system it'll prolly mean decking...
ima scout it soon and play around on toprope with gear and stances for plugging pro..thanks gents and keep the ideas coming
Kilroywashere!
From Harrisonburg, Virginia
Joined Oct 27, 2009
287 points
Oct 13, 2010
Aid climbing on limestone, very thin crack, I dubiously placed a teeny wired stopper, smallest-size wired stopper they made back then(aluminum, SWC, maybe?). The piece I was anchored on popped, not once, but twice, and both times I dropped 6-8'vertically. The tiny stopper held me both times. When I pulled it I realized that the metal at the base of the stopper head had peeled up along the wires about 1-2mm. I still have it in my retired gear bag. Donald Tatum
Joined Apr 22, 2010
0 points
Oct 13, 2010
Me and my Fetish I guess.. ;)
I'm just going to add this for the sake of being thorough: soft catch. Your belayer's actions will weigh significantly on the performance of your placements of they're not optimal. Leave the grigri/cinch/etc in the car.

Sorry for playing the Mr. Obvious role here but you never know what info can help if you don't throw it out.
Daryl Allan
From Sierra Vista, AZ
Joined Sep 13, 2006
1,168 points
Oct 13, 2010
Top half of Melifluous
What route? I'm guessing the New River Gorge? I've done a good bit of stuff out there but that in no way means I've done what you're looking at. Just a shot in the dark. Sam Stephens
Joined Jan 20, 2010
768 points
Oct 20, 2010
Kilroy
its kracken at hidden rocks. looks like it might be wee stoppers...whats the best/quickest way to equalize two stoppers? and how much strength does equalizing two pieces add to the system versus just backing it up with another peice? Kilroywashere!
From Harrisonburg, Virginia
Joined Oct 27, 2009
287 points
Oct 20, 2010
Equalizing two pieces should cut the force in half compared to just using one piece. Of course, the equalizing might have a bit of friction, so probably not perfect. Even with a bit of friction, seems much more useful than just backing up without equalization.

Simple magic-x seems good to me. I can't imagine wanting to mess around with anything more complicated.

If you know which two pieces you will use, you can even pre-clip them onto one sling.
Jeff Fiedler
Joined Oct 21, 2006
4 points
Oct 20, 2010
The wife and I road-trippin on the Connie.
arm-jammer wrote:
its in Sandstone, western Va sandstone, pretty solid but i'll be checking for hollow flakes before i place anything bad thing is there is a chance of decking if the thin stuff pulls. how long do screamers extend? i like the sound but the route is where the thin stuff goes in, if the sling is long(such as an extended screamer) and theres enough slack in the system it'll prolly mean decking... ima scout it soon and play around on toprope with gear and stances for plugging pro..thanks gents and keep the ideas coming



I just got screamers not too long ago, the standard ones start at about 6-7" long and after they're fully deployed they're a standard shoulder length runner (about 2 feet). They activate at 2kn (550lbs) and are supposed to reduce the peak load on a piece quite a bit. Nice to have when you've got small gear or old pins that are between you and the hospital. $14 at rock and snow (gunks). They make shorty's too, which are about 4" long at first, but do the exact same thing. From Yates - "The standard Screamer can effectively reduce peak loads by 3-4kN in any climbing or rescue system."
Larry S
From Easton, Pennsylvania
Joined May 28, 2010
921 points
Oct 20, 2010
ICE PIT 2011
Two Pieces of gear equilzed with a sliding x and a Screamer

Try to put the largest size cam you can in the crack as it will have less chance of pulling.
sunder
From Alsip, Il
Joined Apr 19, 2009
844 points
Administrator
Oct 20, 2010
JSH @ home  photo courtesy of Gabe Ostriker
I think this discussion is missing a big factor (pun intended):

Is this 15' section with meager gear right off the ground, or does it come 100' into a pitch?
JSH
Joined Apr 3, 2007
1,068 points
Oct 20, 2010
I thought you said small gear ? - #1  rp's are small gear john strand
From southern colo
Joined May 22, 2008
2,279 points
Oct 20, 2010
Kilroy
JSH wrote:
I think this discussion is missing a big factor (pun intended): Is this 15' section with meager gear right off the ground, or does it come 100' into a pitch?

its right above a slabby section of the climb thats prolly about 35-40' tall. heres a pic so you can see what im talking about

i35.photobucket.com/albums/d17...
Kilroywashere!
From Harrisonburg, Virginia
Joined Oct 27, 2009
287 points
Administrator
Oct 20, 2010
JSH @ home  photo courtesy of Gabe Ostriker
Ok, to be more explicit, it sounds like you need to read up on fall factors

A big fall factor (say, a 15 foot fall with 15 feet of rope out) may produce forces big enough to break small gear. That is generally why 0 and 00s are considered "aid gear" - they are not rated for much more than bodyweight.

A small fall factor (say, a 15 foot fall with 100 feet of rope out) won't pull on your gear as hard.

It's important to be able to gauge which situation you're in, and whether your gear is up to the task at all, regardless of how well it's placed.

Your posting history says you've just started to lead. If that's the case, I would strongly suggest that you not push your limits on a route where you're also pushing your gear knowledge.

Consider that the rope will stretch, and what looks like a 15' fall will become 20' or 25', and will put a few more things aimed at your bones, into your path. That slab might hurt.
JSH
Joined Apr 3, 2007
1,068 points
Oct 20, 2010
Kilroy
haha i need to update those stats, i really lead 5.8 trad comfortably now, and have been leading for over a year now on trad

this would def be pushing my lead limits, my gear knowledge is pretty good, just havent done a super lot when it comes to the smaller gear
Kilroywashere!
From Harrisonburg, Virginia
Joined Oct 27, 2009
287 points
Dec 5, 2010
rubicon
Climbing is dangerous. Take advice from others with a grain of salt, and make your best judgement.

Here are some things you can do,

1) Swallow some pride and rehearse on toprope first
2) Have your partner jump hard for a soft catch
3) Stitch it up and hope something holds
Brian Paden
From Goleta CA
Joined Apr 6, 2010
75 points
Dec 5, 2010
Psyched or bananas
Not sure if anyone posted this, but if you really want to know if the gear is solid and don't mind the non-ground up ethic, set a toprope, and test the placements. Bounce test em with your bodyweight, or throw a loaded rucksack at 'em. Then you will know what they can hold. Jesse Ryan
Joined Jan 1, 2001
4,191 points
Dec 5, 2010
You stay away from mah pig!
Any discussion of "is it good?" gear comes down to a tautology: "it's good if it's bomber!"

The only other variable that I don't think has been covered yet is, have you checked if the placement will work for a 4 cam unit, as opposed to a TCU? Four lobes are obviously always better than three on the rock.

I've actually got a project right now that I'm trying to get the balls up to lead; I've only TR'd it. 20 feet of unprotected, hardish climbing, up to a strenuous-to-place but good 0 Metolius, which is the only piece of gear keeping you off the deck for the crux. I really hope it is a good piece.
camhead
From Vandalia, Appalachia
Joined Jun 27, 2006
1,369 points
Dec 5, 2010
Bocan
Well this is a productive thread!!!

Like said above if you can equalize do it. Remebmer to reset the piece if you do fall. If you don't you're asking for trouble.
Scott McMahon
From Boulder, CO
Joined Feb 15, 2006
947 points
Administrator
Dec 5, 2010
El Chorro
We took multiple falls on a purple tcu and a black alien recently and never had a piece rip. Broke the camstop on the tcu but it still held. If I'm gonna run it out on tiny stuff I often place two pieces and equalize them with a sliding x or just place all the small gear I have and know that they can't all come out. Try putting in a good nut, ball nut, or even the new tiny tricam above the last cam. I'm willing to bet you won't even pull out your "ripper piece." Ryan Williams
From London (sort of)
Joined May 10, 2009
1,468 points


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