Link ups, are they first ascents?

A guy linked the cruxes of three different routes with 8 feet of new climbing between the first crux and the second. Should this be listed as an FA in a new guidebook or just a note in one of the three routes involved.

I think it depends on the significance of those 8 feet, and the theoretical "new route" that would be created. If the new route would be much higher quality/ more fun/follow a "better" or obvious line, it might be worth adding as a new route. If those 8 feet are as hard as or harder than the cruxes on either side, it might be worth adding as a new route.

Eric, you're pribably more qualified to answer that question than anyone who is goin to respond.

I'd say yes, he does get a first ascent... Of the link up. How you choose to document that is up to you, as the author. I'd say anything works as ling as you keep consistancy theoughout the book.

But I think you have to document the ascent. Who knows, it might become the most popular way to climb that section of the crag. If that's the case, then the guy whi had the eye for the line should get credit, even if it is only for connecting two other lines.

I say it depends as well. In Clear Creek Canyon we have two different walls with a a$$ ton of linkups. (Disclaimer: I am not talking $#hit about the handful of super psyched climbers from Denver).

New River Wall
mountainproject.com/v/the-n…
Primo Wall
mountainproject.com/v/primo…

If one was to check out the New River Wall they'd think, "Holy Sheep $#it!!! This wall must be huge! There are 30 routes here!!!" In reality there are about 5 independent lines on a wall that is only 30-ft wide and the rest are either direct starts, or linkups in one form of the other. Same goes for the 50-ft span of rock between Public Solitude and Groan Up at Primo Wall. The left side of the Project Wall in Rifle has the same problem for lack a better word.

I'd say for purposes of a guidebook it would make more since to only list the independent lines and either reference Mountain Project for the myraid of linkups/direct starts, or leave it as a sidenote in the guidebook. The book would get too cluttered unless the number of linkups is relatively small.

You're supposed to yell "Dude, you're off-route and gonna die!"

Sounds like a 'variation' - many guidebooks will list these.

Hell, the boulderers list very possible variation of moving around on a pebble as an independent FA, so link-ups surely are worthy.

Thanks for the input. The problem is the consistency thing. Some link-ups are worth mentioning others, meh! When I did the guide to Enchanted Tower in New Mexico my coauthor Guy Agee had linked every route on the tower to another one and named them. I just mentioned they had all been done and some were worth doing if you had done all of the original lines.

I don't want climbing routes to be like bouldering where one needs an instructional video to get the correct hand on the correct hold or you did the other route.

A pet peeve of mine is checking in the What's New section and seeing like 20 V-somethings listed on the same damn boulder.

In theory, a linkup this awesome should have its own entry.

In practice, giving linkups that much attention will have people fabricating linkups everywhere and make keeping the guidebook updated even more of a nightmare than it already is.

So I vote for a small note in the route the linkup starts from, and even then only for the worthy (in the author's opinion) ones.

jarthur wrote: If one was to check out the New River Wall they'd think, "Holy Sheep $#it!!! This wall must be huge! There are 30 routes here!!!" In reality there are about 5 independent lines on a wall that is only 30-ft wide and the rest are either direct starts, or linkups in one form of the other.

Speaking of, I made this to help sort out the insanity on the NRW. Note that this only shows a fraction of the linkups, and its a bit outdated now.

No comment.

Also, I'd love to get your thoughts on what the 5 independent lines are :)

Monomaniac wrote: Speaking of, I made this to help sort out the insanity on the NRW. Note that this only shows a fraction of the linkups, and its a bit outdated now. Also, I'd love to get your thoughts on what the 5 independent lines are :)

Holy crap! That's even more complicated than I thought when I tried to figure out all the lines. I'd like to see that road map updated with the newer lines, but that is starting to look more complicated than a 2000 piece jigsaw puzzle. For now I'll just stick with trying to send Sonic Youth, still the most obvious route up the wall.

Monomaniac wrote: Speaking of, I made this to help sort out the insanity on the NRW. Note that this only shows a fraction of the linkups, and its a bit outdated now. Also, I'd love to get your thoughts on what the 5 independent lines are :)

That's awesome. I think a rule of thumb for "when the link-up situation is getting dire" is when color-coding is necessary for the topo to make sense. Not that I'm trashing the NRW; I think that BK's work there has really made the most out of the few really steep walls in the Front Range You did miss a couple, though. You didn't even list Sonic Youth, although I guess that just goes into the "duh" category.

As to how a guidebook should credit link-up ascents, I really like the way that Dave Pegg handled it in the previous (2008) edition of the Rifle guidebook. He listed the main, independent lines and major variations in the usual way in the book, and then for wall with a lot of link-ups he had a "Link-ups and local stuff" sidebar; this made it possible to credit those who added link-ups while still putting link-ups in a slightly subordinate category as compared to new independent lines. It basically indicates to a new visitor: "here are the main independent lines worth trying, you should do these first, then in a little while you might try this link up variation".

A few situations also exist that make the link-up a more notable addition These are (A) When the link up is by far the hardest route on the wall, linking cruxes of several routes, and thus is notable from a pure difficulty perspective, and (B) When the link-up is the better/more natural line. It sometimes happens that the original lines don't actually follow the most sensible/obvious/best line, and someone later puts in the link-up that diagonals across on the obvious feature. In this case, the link-up deserves more attention (example: I am Not a Philistine and the Phil of All Evil in Rifle are both link-ups, despite being two of the best routes there.)

I like how Adirondack Rock deals with this for Chapel Pond Slab, "Nearly every square inch of rock has been climbed and in every style imaginable -- e.g., with packs, in hiking boots, barefoot, naked."

If there are lots of variations, lots of linkups, just say that.

If a variation or linkup is especially important, or of especially good quality -- that variation or linkup may be worth noting on its own. But not all the various choices that people who have climbed there 500 times have done to try and find something new to climb.

1Eric Rhicard wrote:A guy linked the cruxes of three different routes with 8 feet of new climbing between the first crux and the second. Should this be listed as an FA in a new guidebook or just a note in one of the three routes involved.

Maybe after the sequential route list, add a subsection listing all the mangrove routes. I certainly have a lot of fun on link-ups but they tend to only be interesting for locals. I suppose the Lemmon does have a few areas that cater to this type of clustering.

My other problem with adding the linkups was alluded to earlier, and that is that it encourages more linkups. This is a nightmare for guidebook authors. What if I did a route, traversed over to the route 5 feet left and down climbed it. Can I name it. It is twice as long and has more cruxes so it has to be better and harder. When I was a kid at Taylors falls there was a boulder problem called Slick Sides. We would boulder up it and down the route that ended in the same place. Oh wait that is bouldering.

The new guidebook to Mount Lemmon will have around 3000 routes with close to half of them being new. I think that if some linkups are not in the book someone can post an online guide to them. The last thing I want is a photo like the one Mono posted.
Thanks for the input.

With the eventual advent of GIS into guide-booking, we should be able to dial up uncluttered beta pretty easily.