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Leading without ascenders?

Original Post
Leo Wu · · Longmont, CO · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 0

I am going to put it out there first that I am a complete noob on big wall climbing. Just looking to make the first training trip.

So I am wondering if I could just lead without a pair of ascenders. It seems to me that the only place a leader will need the ascenders is on hauling. Can I just use prusik cord for that purpose, assuming I will just body haul? Any problem with that? A prusik loop saves a lot of weight instead of ascenders, and I am always weight conscious. If this works, I guess a team of two could just carry one pair of ascenders. Sorry for the silly question, and thanks a lot. I searched but couldn't find anything.

Ryan N · · Bellingham, WA · Joined May 2009 · Points: 195

In my opinion, with little wall expierence, I'd take one. A lot of the guys will tell you you don't need one and only for the follower to carry ascenders. With the standard 2:1 hauling setup, you won't need them. With 1:1 you will and using a prussick(?) will be a pain in the ass when you load it with 150lbs of gear. Go out there and play around you'll find your rhythm, everyone has their own way.

Mark Hudon · · Lives on the road · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 420

You could go without full blown ascenders and still haul 1 to 1, some smaller rope grabs would do the trick. I agree with Ryan though, given your lack of experience, I wouldn't want to be out there making things any harder for myself.

Tomtomtomtom · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 0

How about those miniatures likes the kong duck or WC ropeman?
Not that I'm a bigwaller or actively trying to become one, just curious, do people use these or are they out of place for hauling?

Mark Hudon · · Lives on the road · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 420

A Ropeman and Gri-gri would get you up a rope pretty easily.

Bob Dobalina · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 140

I learned bigwall climbing before the days of lightweight gear and speed ascents. So I have a habit of carrying my ascenders on lead.
I should really swap out my oval biners with wire gates too...

Mark Hudon · · Lives on the road · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 420

When I climb walls with Max, we have a dedicated cleaning setup of a pair of jugs and a set of light aiders. When I'm with Cheyne, we take only one pair of jugs but use our own aiders to clean since he likes ladders and I like the original etriers.

Either way it saves a bit of weight. The leader has a Gri-gri and can ultimately get into the haul kit for a Basic or a Micro-trax if he needs to ascend a rope after a fall. A shoulder length sling, tied into any type of rope grab knot works well enough also.

If we've fixed a pitch the evening before, the leader jugs the rope and then clips the jugs on the rope and slides them back down to the second. No big deal.

Highlander · · Ouray, CO · Joined Apr 2008 · Points: 256

I usually prefer hauling with a gri gri, allows you to lower the the haul bag onto the anchor once its tethered in. Only problem with the gri gri is if you if your using counter weight hauling with your partner helping by hauling the bag by hanging on the free end of the haul line, then you can't feed the rope thru the gri gri.

Mark Hudon · · Lives on the road · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 420

The Gri-gri as the rope grab AND as the pulley? As a rope grab its great, as a pulley it really sucks. I can't imagine that you haul anything too heavy with it.

Oh, okay, I just re-read your post. You're using it as the rope grab at your waist. Yes, that's a real good way to go.

trundlebum · · Las Vegas NV · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 85

If you haul, never use anything less than a sheeve pulley. If the load is more than 60lbs than get a good one with bearings !
The friction from a GriGri alone or a cheesy 'biner sheeve' etc will kill you !
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Ok if a 'has been' can throw in a 'two cents' ?

I prefer to have either two pairs of ascenders or one pair and a GriGri combo on an aid ascent.
(dependant on whether you prefer standard or 'froggy style' jugging as a second)

But I like to have them dedicated to cleaning and hauling.

I, as Mark states below prefer standard/non ladder style etriers. A big reason for this is because I find they 'stash' much tighter and faster. Each climber keeps their aiders with them for leading and belay comfort.
note: I create a light, relatively snag free, dedicated jugging system that works for both climbers. That usually means webbing with single foot loop and separate lanyard for each ascender, where both are adjustable if need be (almost always) to accomodate climbers of different body geometry and/or lanyard length preferences.
I don't like jugging/cleaning with etriers. I find that the steps above and below the ones I am using get hung up a lot. A big reason why I prefer a clean, dedicated jugging setup. Same basic principal for the haul system.
but they must be dialed in' for both climbers.

My prefered, personal aider system:
(I make my own)
Two full length (5 step) aiders with light, 3 step sub aiders both attached together with a biner and FiFi at the head. And a third 5 step no sub aider, to be used occasionally.
(I build the FiFi onto the head of the aider so I don't loose biner length and I rarely use the biner unless I think the piece might pop)

I almost never use a daisy while aiding. If I think a piece may pop I just clip one of the sub aider steps to a harness, gear loop while testing.
I like a FiFi girth'ed to my harness on as short a connection as is reasonably possible.
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I'm in the ' Bob Dobalina' camp as to being an ole fut recalling from days of yore.
My prefered technique and what always seemed pretty efficient:

Unless it is a really huge load, the leader will generally have the bag hauled to the anchor before the second finishes cleaning and therefore has time to re-setup the haul system as a prepackaged kit (whatever config' it is) for the next lead. The second can jug up and just step out of the cleaning jugs and leave them to be managed by the belayer in his spare time. after he/she leads off,
A note here:
If the anchor is not elaborate ie: a bivy, then I like to keep things simple.
If (say) I just finished a lead and set up a vertically config'd anchor. I prefer a simple setup, using just the rope itself.
I will build my chain down from the top piece essentially equalizing with clove hitches between pieces (no slack of course). and position myself at the bottom so that my hauling gear is above me and easy to manage. That leaves the second jugging from/loading the top piece. I don't like that idea due to possible shock loading in the event of a top piece failure, so I simply clove off the lead line to the bottom of the chain as well. When the second reaches the belay he can pass that clove and still jug to the top of the chain putting him in a position a little above the previous leader/new belayer. That makes it easy for the new leader to grab the left over rack and rerack what was cleaned ~ while the old leader/new belayer is clipping the reconfig'd, prepackaged haul kit (or tag to haul kit) to him/her and grabbing from the cleaning kit/tools ie: (if opted for) hammer, funkness, nut pry etc.

Before the new leader is 'racked and ready', the belayer simply reaches up, grabs the rope from new leader's harness and put's him/her on belay regardless of any 'chicken knots/loops' left over from jugging the previous pitch. The new leader is now on 'B' and simply castes off the 'chicken knots/loops' as the belayer takes up that slack while stacking the lead line. The new leader with their own, personal aiders either in use or stashed for when needed, moves directly out of the cleaning kit into the lead.
By doing it this way there is no need for the second/cleaning man to ever tie into the belay directly, thus alleviating procedural steps and cloisterie.

I'm with J.Wilder:
It is convenient to leave them (the hauling jugs/system) behind and tag them up either before reaching the belay or the limit of a shorter, lighter tagline. If in the odd case that the leader takes a fall on a radically steep or leaning section they can just 'pirate' the haul system for the tools needed for a recovery.

Re: Mark's comment:
"If we've fixed a pitch the evening before, the leader jugs the rope and then clips the jugs on the rope and slides them back down to the second. No big deal."

I have done climbs where we did not haul but rather second jugs with a pack. So like Mark says just bringing one set is fine and you can slide them back down. However I had a situation once that was an eye opener. I had slide the jugs down (no tag line to slow the descent) and they were hanging in the typical upside down position when not in use. They hit a small ledge and one of the two cams got severly jammed into the body. Since we had no hammer, it took some serious smacking against the wall, with a nut pry to dislodge it and in turn tha made the use of it a little unnerving for a few pitches.
I think a light tagline used to slow the descent (easpecially on less than vertical) could elliviate some wear or possible damage to the jugs as well as simply aiding in the management (keeping them from hanging up on flakes etc, mid descent)

Whether full wall hauling or jugging with a pack, it is realy nice to have at least a 30 metre .
(or longer if you like but the more line the more the management/weight)
Light tags are nice for so many general utility uses and if nothing else, if need be I would rather chop up a 5 ~ 7mm tag line to use as a cordellet to equilize fixed or left gear in the advent of a bail.

note: jugging with a pack ~ a chest harness to pass your top ascender lanyard through is essential !
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A bottom line:
Whether your free climbing or aid climbing, belay transitions are where a lot of time is made or lost. The more efficient the transition the smoother the team. A smooth team (in any scenario) is very dependant on both climbers being agreed upon, well practiced/well oiled in their sysetm of team work especially during transitions.
note: even on purely clean ascents a hammer for the second is a strong consideration. If a hammer is opted for then it's lanyard and hoslter are subject to all the above considerations, ie: fast/efficient transition of a secure setup.

What ever system you and your partner have chosen, be it four ascenders or perhaps a haul kit with a traxion and a cleaning kit that employs an ascender and GriGri (for 'froggy srtyle' cleaning/jugging) you must decide and you must practice until you are dialed as individuals and a team!

Some people think I am nuts and accuse me of 'Over processing' when I want to spend whatever time it takes to discuss prior to climbing with a new partner (no matter how experienced they are) the details of transitioning. It's preferably the night before or if need be, during 'rope up/shoe up' time. Even if it's only going to be a simple 4 pitch free climb.
I think it's nuts not to !

No matter what, if both climbers use the same method for racking, (dedicated) jugging and hauling it will make a huge difference in efficiency !

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Big Wall and Aid Climbing
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