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Leading at Lost T - what is proper ettiquite?
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By RadTrad
From Prescott, Arizona
Aug 17, 2012
Storm over on Toms Thumb

I also forgot to mention that the same day Jeff had told me that Gary and Bill thought the line needed bolts. I can see the line next to this one could need bolts but this line does not need bolts, and so I guess maybe part of the ascent could have been a statement on anti bolting. Because there is an over amount of unnecessary bolting in the area. the line goes on gear, and thats that.


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By Unassigned User
Aug 17, 2012

I think you should change the name on it, something like Cleanings for Pimps. Or Clean Faster Gary.

You know reflect the nature of how the route was done, make it funny.


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By Ben Brotelho
From Albany, NY
Aug 17, 2012
Epic free solo with a pack on

Paul U Roberts wrote:
I was under the impression that Jeff had done most of the cleaning and seeing how he was with me and told me to give it a burn on lead I thought nothing more of it than just rock climbing. Not trying to insult anyone but it is just rock climbing. I was just having fun when I climbed the route and didn't think it would insult or anger this many people. So you can call me an asshole, you can call me a douchebag, you can call me what ever you would like. I apologize that my ascent of "Crimps Are For Pimps" created such negative impact and negative thoughts in so many people. If you have any further inquires please let me know.


Paul, this is quite a reasonable and sensible response. This is why climbing rocks...I wrote your name in the forum just to stir the pot a bit but this response was great. Having fun is the name of the game, and if climbing gets your panties all up in a bunch and you can't see through the BS of "mine," "his," "first," "hardest," ETC and just CLIMB fo' FUN, well...you're doin' it wrong! I may be a n00b but I have a blast whenever I climb, so according to Alex Lowe's old adage, I'm up there with the best, as are you Paul


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By MaxSuffering
From KVNY
Aug 17, 2012

Well, well, well, the plot thickens. I'm inclined to retract my earlier statements and call it an honest mistake if Paul thought he had permission from someone he believed was part of the cleaning crew. Douche-bag status revoked... at least for now, barring new information.

On a slightly different topic though I'd be interested to hear more about the bolts. How many? What is the gear like without them? Is leading the route sans bolts an R/X horror show or a reasonable endeavor for someone climbing at the grade?

For the record I'm not at all opposed to bolts or bolted routes but wonder if bolted routes that can be led safely on gear (G or PG protection rating) is the direction anyone wants the ADKs to go. Maybe a topic for a different thread?


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By rogerbenton
Aug 17, 2012
Whoever this guy is, he's just plain irresponsible.

wait, so....
wait, so....


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By Gary C Thomann
Aug 18, 2012

I would like to thank everybody for their support here, particularly the very nice things that you said Justin. I accomplished one thing by starting this post and that is I found out just what happened. Jeff Erickson did do a minority part of the cleaning on that climb. I, and others, have had problems with Jeff before. We will not in the future because there will be no association with him.

Paul, your response was very reasonable. I don’t suppose you wish to withdraw your first ascent or the naming of the climb. You are obviously a very good climber; I have seen several climbers on that route and it is not easy. You said that you went out to the cliff to repeat “Flavor of the day.” Have you ever done “CB loves grannies?”

As for the number of bolts at Lost T, I have some comments on that but they will probably start a firestorm, so I will begin another post on that. There is, in fact, another post already going on about that but considering the way it got started I would rather start again with a new one.

Again, thanks everyone for your comments.


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By Rob Dillon
Aug 18, 2012

Headpoint Hero?


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By RadTrad
From Prescott, Arizona
Aug 18, 2012
Storm over on Toms Thumb

Gary C Thomann wrote:
I would like to thank everybody for their support here, particularly the very nice things that you said Justin. I accomplished one thing by starting this post and that is I found out just what happened. Jeff Erickson did do a minority part of the cleaning on that climb. I, and others, have had problems with Jeff before. We will not in the future because there will be no association with him. Paul, your response was very reasonable. I don’t suppose you wish to withdraw your first ascent or the naming of the climb. You are obviously a very good climber; I have seen several climbers on that route and it is not easy. You said that you went out to the cliff to repeat “Flavor of the day.” Have you ever done “CB loves grannies?” As for the number of bolts at Lost T, I have some comments on that but they will probably start a firestorm, so I will begin another post on that. There is, in fact, another post already going on about that but considering the way it got started I would rather start again with a new one. Again, thanks everyone for your comments.



Gary I have done "CB loves grannies" now that is a tricky line! very balance orientated and provokes the mind a bit. As far as the bolting at the cliff goes I suggest not posting anything on the internet about the situation and I will leave you with one of my favorite quotes as to why:

"Though sometimes I am inclined to entertain the notion that climbers are of intellectual superiority to the masses, conversations on climbing forums certainly prove me wrong."

It is still a developing crag and that is that.


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By Glenn Schuler
From Monument, Co.
Aug 18, 2012
A grey fox skull wedged in a crack 100' up on a FA I was working on - don't see that every day...

Sorry to have jumped to conclusions Paul, you seem like a good dude. Sounds like some miscommunication between Jeff and Gary.


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By MJMobes
From The land of steady habits
Aug 18, 2012
modern man

when I climb its purely for fun. I have given FAs away just to see someone have fun and get psyched.


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By Darren in Vegas
From Las Vegas, NV
Aug 19, 2012
Skiing around.

The part of this that smacks of bull to me is that this Paul guy goes to a crag to lead some "hardman" route that has a bolt on it and then headpoints an easier route and claims it doesn't need bolts. Not that he stick clipped the bolt, but that is what the mp.com description recommends. (see flavor of the day )

I'm not sure you are the guy to make the call that this route doesn't need bolts.
I have no beef with the fact that you thought you were being gifted an FA, but the rest I disagree with. Headpointing messes up the ability of a climber to understand the experience of leading ground up.

Gary C Thomann, if you think this route needs a bolt, it is your route, do it. Just because it got climbed before you were done preparing the line doesn't mean anything.


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By RadTrad
From Prescott, Arizona
Aug 19, 2012
Storm over on Toms Thumb

Darren in Vegas wrote:
The part of this that smacks of bull to me is that this Paul guy goes to a crag to lead some "hardman" route that has a bolt on it and then headpoints an easier route and claims it doesn't need bolts. Not that he stick clipped the bolt, but that is what the mp.com description recommends. (see flavor of the day ) I'm not sure you are the guy to make the call that this route doesn't need bolts. I have no beef with the fact that you thought you were being gifted an FA, but the rest I disagree with. Headpointing messes up the ability of a climber to understand the experience of leading ground up. Gary C Thomann, if you think this route needs a bolt, it is your route, do it. Just because it got climbed before you were done preparing the line doesn't mean anything.


Darren, flavor of the day is a bolted route that for sure takes no gear-go climb it and you'll believe me.

maybe we are mixing up the definition of head point? The only reason I did not ground up FA this route is because the last time I did that I took a 40 foot whipper because the oh so beautiful crack from the ground turned out to be nothing but a seam. I took a 40 foot whipper and landed 8" from the ledge. So needless to say Iv been spooked from that experience since.

I top roped the route, then did the lead from the ground, placing my own gear all the way. this route is a serious lead, I think people should try it on gear and remember what climbing use to be like before they go around wanting to make the sport more coach potato friendly.

I don't see how leading FLOD as a bolted route as it stands and then top roping a potential new route then going for the lead effects my judgement to say that the route doesn't need bolts. I believe if a line has gone on gear, than its simple as that the line should stay as a gear route.


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By Darren in Vegas
From Las Vegas, NV
Aug 19, 2012
Skiing around.

Paul U Roberts wrote:
Darren, flavor of the day is a bolted route that for sure takes no gear-go climb it and you'll believe me.
I have no doubt this is true.
Paul U Roberts wrote:
maybe we are mixing up the definition of head point? The only reason I did not ground up FA this route is because the last time I did that I took a 40 foot whipper because the oh so beautiful crack from the ground turned out to be nothing but a seam. I took a 40 foot whipper and landed 8" from the ledge. So needless to say Iv been spooked from that experience since.

You are confirming my point about head pointing with this statement. If you can't do it from the ground, then you might not be able to clearly understand if the route needs bolts.
Paul U Roberts wrote:
I top roped the route, then did the lead from the ground, placing my own gear all the way. this route is a serious lead, I think people should try it on gear and remember what climbing use to be like before they go around wanting to make the sport more coach potato friendly.

I would argue that top roping a route first before leading it is making climbing something it shouldn't be.
Paul U Roberts wrote:
I don't see how leading FLOD as a bolted route as it stands and then top roping a potential new route then going for the lead effects my judgement to say that the route doesn't need bolts.
What I see is the problem with this type of approach is that no where in your description on this website does it say that you head pointed this route. Whether you intended to do it in this style or not, this is what has transpired. Now when people go to lead this thing from the ground they will assume that ground up was the style of the first ascent and try to match it. On top of that you are trying to make some kind of statement against bolts in your route description. Which is kind of hypocritical since you were only at the cliff to climb a bolted route.
Paul U Roberts wrote:
I believe if a line has gone on gear, than its simple as that the line should stay as a gear route.

Most of the time I would agree with you. However, it is not always so cut and dried.

edit: for full disclosure, I am interested in this topic because there were a bunch of multi pitch routes put up in the Vegas area head point style and I take issue with the fact that I had to do a lot of digging to find out this was the case. Your route, while not as blatant an example of this type of thing is still similar. I appreciate your willingness to discuss this topic.


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By RadTrad
From Prescott, Arizona
Aug 19, 2012
Storm over on Toms Thumb

"What I see is the problem with this type of approach is that no where in your description on this website does it say that you head pointed this route. Whether you intended to do it in this style or not, this is what has transpired. Now when people go to lead this thing from the ground they will assume that ground up was the style of the first ascent and try to match it. On top of that you are trying to make some kind of statement against bolts in your route description. Which is kind of hypocritical since you were only at the cliff to climb a bolted route. "- Darren

I see what you are saying now, and understand how it could cause some problems with people. But thats where the safety grading comes into play, (G,PG-13,R,X) I added the Pg-13 to the rating because there is a potential of getting hurt, and thats just the nature of climbing but with this particular climb if you blow the first crux you hit the ledge. You can still ground up Lead this climb no problem, just understand the type of situation you are getting into.

Im not antibolts, im anti bolts on routes that could go on gear. Either way if you head point the route or go ground up you'll still have to look for the gear placements and place them.


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By Kevin Heckeler
From Upstate New York
Aug 19, 2012
Rumney

If Jeff sold you on the FA under the pretense HE cleaned the route, then my apologies. Jeff would then be the asshole, and you simply caught up in the mess.

Unfortunately it doesn't necessarily change anything for Gary other than the focus of his disdain onto Jeff. I think in light of these details, it would seem reasonable to me that you should seriously consider revoking your FA and just leaving it to the Lost T crew to finish. I know if I was in your shoes that's what I would do.

Technically my first FA was in a very similar situation where friends had cleaned a wall with a couple routes on them, each of them (3) had a route and offered me the fourth line depsite me only putting in 10% of the time they did cleaning, and maybe only a little more effort into helping with misc approach related things. I still don't consider that a FA. My first and only real FA was recently at Crane, where I cleaned the route myself top to bottom and led it. I feel proud of having done this. I'd say 95% of the work that goes into the climb has NOTHING to do with climbing. It's elbow grease, sweat, and in my case some blood.

I wonder if the FA (Dixie Normous) right of Five Star Crack is another poach. I was there the day Jeff led it. The route was probably half cleaned before he finished cleaning it. Might be a little more of a gray area in that case.


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By Benjaminadk
From Lake George, NY
Aug 25, 2012
Me

I personally dont care about the whole bolt contreversy at this cliff. I am, however, curious as to the back story behind Dixie Normus. I was there at Lost T for the first time the day it was sent and participated in the FA. Honestly I spent most of my time staring at LK and 5star crack and didnt pay the bolts much mind at all until they were explained to me. Anyways....poaching routes is not cool and i know first hand how much work goes into cleaning something. I will say that Jeff did put a few hours of scrubbing in that day and stated that he had started clean Dixie Normus the prior weekend. I am taking his word for it unless someone tells me otherwise.


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By Kevin Heckeler
From Upstate New York
Sep 18, 2012
Rumney

Just some food for thought... every act on public land must be scrutinized.

www.accessfund.org/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=tmL5KhNWL>>>

This issue isn't just an ADK one. If we want to continue to enjoy our quality of climbing we really need to get on board with the spirit of this article.


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