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Lance Armstrong
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By Jason N.
From Grand Junction
Jan 16, 2013
Indy pass

snicho wrote:
what is the potential of this happening in climbing? especially now that the competition side of things has the potential of becoming an olympic sport?


I think certain sports and types of competition lend themselves to PED/doping/etc. while others do not. As far as the implication to climbing, overall I think it's a sport that lends itself to a relatively low incidence rate of doping....though I'd be curious what others thought?

How would doping for climbing improvement be done even? Using the blood doping from cycling to stave of the pump?


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By redlude97
Jan 16, 2013

Jason N. wrote:
I think certain sports and types of competition lend themselves to PED/doping/etc. while others do not. As far as the implication to climbing, overall I think it's a sport that lends itself to a relatively low incidence rate of doping....though I'd be curious what others thought? How would doping for climbing improvement be done even? Using the blood doping from cycling to stave of the pump?

EPO doping runs in the $1k/month range and up, I doubt many climbers would be able to afford it.


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By camhead
From Vandalia, Appalachia
Jan 16, 2013
You stay away from mah pig!

Crag Dweller wrote:
Yes, and the twist is that someone who has less natural potential will derive greater benefits from PEDs. So, it's not as though everyone can dope and the bar will raise equally for everyone. There may very well have been athletes competing against LA who had more natural ability and would have beaten him had he not been doping.


I'm not super informed on this (and I said up-thread that I didn't care, haha), but correct me if I'm wrong: I thought that Lance was an exceptionally genetically gifted individual. I read somewhere that his blood processed oxygen abnormally efficiently, or something like that.


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By camhead
From Vandalia, Appalachia
Jan 16, 2013
You stay away from mah pig!

redlude97 wrote:
EPO doping runs in the $1k/month range and up, I doubt many climbers would be able to afford it.


We can just go ahead and say that the Euros would probably do it, what with their socialist state sponsorship, man-capris, and Mammut sponsorships and all.


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By redlude97
Jan 16, 2013

camhead wrote:
I'm not super informed on this (and I said up-thread that I didn't care, haha), but correct me if I'm wrong: I thought that Lance was an exceptionally genetically gifted individual. I read somewhere that his blood processed oxygen abnormally efficiently, or something like that.

He was below average in the peloton before the cancer, and suddenly became elite soon after recovering. If it wasn't obvious he was doping then your head was in the sand.


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By Morgan Patterson
Administrator
Jan 16, 2013
Stoked...

i hope his ass get arrested and put in jail... ruined people's lives while doping and now that he's been caught he wants to turn whistle blower and ruin more people's lives? wtf is wrong with this guy... what a douche bag loser.


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By Bob Banks
Jan 16, 2013

redlude97 wrote:
He was below average in the peloton before the cancer, and suddenly became elite soon after recovering. If it wasn't obvious he was doping then your head was in the sand.


You don't know what you're talking about. Maybe you consider winning a Tour de France stage 'below average', which he did in the '95 Tour, but he was well on his way to becoming a great racer before cancer.

He was/is exceptionally gifted in many aspects (being an asshole is high on that list). He was also a doper before and after cancer (reference Frankie and Betsy Andreu's assertion that he told his cancer doctor he had been doping).


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By redlude97
Jan 16, 2013

Bob Banks wrote:
You don't know what you're talking about. Maybe you consider winning a Tour de France stage 'below average', which he did in the '95 Tour, but he was well on his way to becoming a great racer before cancer. He was/is exceptionally gifted in many aspects (being an asshole is high on that list). He was also a doper before and after cancer (reference Frankie and Betsy Andreu's assertion that he told his cancer doctor he had been doping).

He won a relatively short flat stage. He was a decent classics and short tour rider, but couldn't hang in any of the grand tours. Before the cancer he sucked at climbing. I wouldn't say he was well on his way to being great. He was making progress towards being a decent rider but his trajectory before the cancer was not towards winning the tour in the foreseeable future. His future was as a domestique before the doping. Yes the doping started before the cancer also but didn't have the results to show for it.


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By "H"
From Manitou Springs
Jan 16, 2013
Axes glistening in the sun

Just in case you care to spend the time to watch...

Number of Denials for LA


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By Brent Larsen
From Spearfish, SD
Jan 16, 2013
EBM, 5.11a <br />Sunshine Wall, Spearfish Canyon. <br />South Dakota.

I wonder if we could make the argument that the last "true atheletes" who are performing feats of strength, skill and endurance are rock climbers, both in the profressional realm and the amature arena. Cyclists who win the Tour de France earn millions, rock climbers, who win local and world competitions, are mostly living out of their cars. Athletes who dope their blood and injest steriods to win arn't doing so in order to win...they need to keep those paychecks coming. I doubt Alex Honold and Chris Sharma would be able to afford such doping luxeries, thus, their achievements can be an honest tribute to what humans are truely capable of doing due to a certain level of training and desire. Maybe we need to remove the profit margin from a lot of sports in order to get them back to their competative roots.


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By "H"
From Manitou Springs
Jan 16, 2013
Axes glistening in the sun

I take performance enhancing herbs and aminos. Anyone else?


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By Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Jan 16, 2013
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after a day of cragging.

Brent Larsen wrote:
Maybe we need to remove the profit margin from a lot of sports in order to get them back to their competative roots.


The profit margin IS the sport. Take the millions away from football, basketball, baseball and hockey, what do you have? Nothing. It wouldn't be what it is without the money because it is the money that has driven the competition and athleticism for decades now.

JLP wrote:
Whatever he did and however he did it, I think it all sums up to a whole lot more than anyone in this thread will ever accomplish. Maybe try some of the same drugs and see what YOU can do with them.


However he did it. Sure. This is what most people are concerned with. Not WHAT he did, but HOW he did it. And I'm all for it. Where can I score some? I'm tired of chuffing on shit that fat asses can send.


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By Crag Dweller
From New York, NY
Jan 16, 2013
My navigator keeps me from getting lost

camhead wrote:
I'm not super informed on this (and I said up-thread that I didn't care, haha), but correct me if I'm wrong: I thought that Lance was an exceptionally genetically gifted individual. I read somewhere that his blood processed oxygen abnormally efficiently, or something like that.


Yes, his VO2 max was widely discussed. Pump yourself full of EPO and re-infuse a liter of blood and your VO2 max will be abnormally high too.

I don't think there's any question that he was a naturally gifted athlete. The problem is that he was doping for the entirety of his professional career. So, we'll never know whether he was more gifted than any other professional athlete.

But, consider how his early performances compared to other athletes who, for all we know, were/are clean.

Greg LeMond placed 3rd in his first TdF, 2nd the next year, and he won it the following year.
Cadel Evans placed 8th in his first TdF and won it 6 years later, after the 'Lance-era' had concluded.
Bradley Wiggins has a very different (track) background and his first couple of TdFs weren't so good but he placed 3rd the first time he raced it as a true stage race contender.
Tejay Van Garderen placed 5th in his first TdF and his future potential looks pretty good.

LA placed 36th in the first TdF that he finished. The prior year he DNF. That doesn't exactly indicate athletic potential that is above and beyond that of others in his ranks, especially considering he was already doping at that time based on the testimony of the Andreu's.


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By coppolillo
Jan 16, 2013

Lance won worlds clean, at the age of 21...didn't start doping until after the '94 season when Ferrari was doping the Gewiss-Ballan team...his VO2 was tested clean and it was one of the highest ever recorded, behind only Bjarne Daehlie, i think (nordy skier, also a doper).

he was definitely not "below average" in the peloton, but yes, he wasn't a contender for a grand tour. one can be an exceptionally gifted rider (Tom Boonen) without being a GC contender in a grand tour.

all that aside, he's a bully, a dick, a liar. yeah, most of the rest of the GC contenders were doping, too, but some had the class to keep their cake holes shut and not be such assholes. lance didn't. see: emma o'reilly, david walsh, bassons.

he's a twat, for sure.


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By redlude97
Jan 16, 2013

coppolillo wrote:
Lance won worlds clean, at the age of 21...didn't start doping until after the '94 season when Ferrari was doping the Gewiss-Ballan team...his VO2 was tested clean and it was one of the highest ever recorded, behind only Bjarne Daehlie, i think (nordy skier, also a doper).

While he has an elite VO2 max, he's not even in the top 10. He has a lower VO2 max than Lemond for one.


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By Gregory D
From La Verne
Jan 16, 2013
fun in the (twilight) sun

Professional cycling, like any other professional sport, is meaningless and contrived at its core. No more important than the latest soap opera or reality tV show. I don't feel bad for the people he beat. I'm not sure pedaling a 7 pound hunk of metal as fast as you can in spandex against a field of athletes. some of whom are know to "cheat", a great career choice.


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By Crag Dweller
From New York, NY
Jan 16, 2013
My navigator keeps me from getting lost

This is slipping towards geeking-out but...

Here's an interesting old story:

"At 21, Armstrong had a distinctly average 21 percent muscle-efficiency rate. Seven years later that rate had increased to 23 percent, a huge leap.... 'We don't know exactly what accounted for Armstrong's muscular-efficiency change,' Coyle said. But he suspects that Armstrong was able to convert fast-twitch muscle fibers to slow-twitch muscle fibers."

news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/07/0722_050722_armstro>>>

I think we do know now what accounted for the change.

Interestingly, when he won world's in Sep of '93 at age 21, his VO2 max would have barely put him in the top 25: davidglover.net/2009/10/understanding-vo2-max-part-1/


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By redlude97
Jan 16, 2013

Crag Dweller wrote:
This is slipping towards geeking-out but... Here's an interesting old story: "At 21, Armstrong had a distinctly average 21 percent muscle-efficiency rate. Seven years later that rate had increased to 23 percent, a huge leap.... 'We don't know exactly what accounted for Armstrong's muscular-efficiency change,' Coyle said. But he suspects that Armstrong was able to convert fast-twitch muscle fibers to slow-twitch muscle fibers." news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/07/0722_050722_armstro>>> I think we do know now what accounted for the change. Interestingly, when he won world's in Sep of '93 at age 21, his VO2 max would have barely put him in the top 25: davidglover.net/2009/10/understanding-vo2-max-part-1/


Yes, but I think the take-away should be that the myth that lance was elite before doping and that his wins when doping were on a level playing field are false. We don't know if he would have won in a clean field, because people respond differently to doping, athletes were doping at different levels and different products(combinations), and how many of their teammates were doping. In lance's case I strongly doubt he would have won any tours in a clean field, and he probably doped better than the rest because of the amount of money he had at his disposal.


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By Crag Dweller
From New York, NY
Jan 16, 2013
My navigator keeps me from getting lost

redlude97 wrote:
Yes, but I think the take-away should be that the myth that lance was elite before doping and that his wins when doping were on a level playing field are false. We don't know if he would have won in a clean field, because people respond differently to doping, athletes were doping at different levels and different products(combinations), and how many of their teammates were doping. In lance's case I strongly doubt he would have won any tours in a clean field, and he probably doped better than the rest because of the amount of money he had at his disposal.


I agree 100% with everything you said!


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By JoeP
From Littleton, CO
Jan 16, 2013

redlude97 wrote:
Yes, but I think the take-away should be that the myth that lance was elite before doping and that his wins when doping were on a level playing field are false. We don't know if he would have won in a clean field, because people respond differently to doping, athletes were doping at different levels and different products(combinations), and how many of their teammates were doping. In lance's case I strongly doubt he would have won any tours in a clean field, and he probably doped better than the rest because of the amount of money he had at his disposal.


Agreed. Along those lines, look at Armstrong compared to Ullrich (admitted to at minimum having contact with a known doping doctor for blood transfusions). Ullrich's first TDF (2nd year pro) - 2nd. 2nd TDF - 1st. 3rd TDF - 2nd. Out for 1999 due to knee injury and then the years of 2nd places to Armstrong. Most all agree that Ullrich was naturally more gifted than Armstrong but he couldn't beat him after Armstrong's metamorphosis into a GT rider.

Even Ullrich's manager noted that Armstrong's change after cancer was "so extraordinary" and upon learning of Armstrong's program, he commented that Ullrich's methods were "petty compared to the gangsters surrounding Armstrong . . . It surprised me how far the team of Armstrong went. It was also strange that they could use EPO and continue working while we were all strictly controlled. Everything changed with the arrival of Bruyneel."

The playing field, even among cheats, was not level, i.e. which is why Armstrong is about to bring down the UCI on Oprah and tell how the top people were complicit in Armstrong's program.


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By Christian
From Casa do Cacete
Jan 17, 2013
Ooops...

ownspecial.oprah.com/lancearmstrong.html


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By coppolillo
Jan 19, 2013

redlude97 wrote:
While he has an elite VO2 max, he's not even in the top 10. He has a lower VO2 max than Lemond for one.


i'm not sure where those folks are getting their data, but lance didn't make his numbers public later in his career. he was originally tested in colorado springs at the OTC, as a junior...i can assure lance's VO2 is NOT 70...while that is elite, it is at the bottom of of Tour winners. lemond's was in the low 90s and lance's was always believed to be higher--but lance didn't share numbers later in his career.

here's one source that says it's 85, which seems more plausible, though i still think it's low: sportsmedicine.about.com/od/anatomyandphysiology/a/VO2_max.h>>>

here's an interview with lemond during which he confirms his vo2 was in the low 90s: www.bikeraceinfo.com/oralhistory/lemond.html

and another source that confirms Bjorne Daehlie was in fact the highest ever recorded VO2 at 96: 16) Astrand P-O and Rodahl K. (1986) The Textbook of Work Physiology: Physiological Bases of Exercise (3rd ed.). New York: McGraw-Hill

there's no way in hell lance's VO2 is only 70--that's good for a domestic professional rider in the US, but wouldn't be a Tour contender in europe...


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By Jon Zucco
From Denver, CO
Jan 19, 2013
yaak crack Red Rock Canyon, NV

I request that this thread name be changed, as I am getting very tired of reading/hearing this name. Thanks!


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