Jugging Fixed Lines

I've recently started learning how to jug fixed lines in hopes of rounding out my skill set for big walls in the up coming seasons. If you follow proced
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Haha oops! I don't know why it didn't print everything. Here is the what I meant to write.

I've recently started learning how to jug fixed lines in hopes of rounding out my skill set for big walls in the up coming seasons. If you follow the procedure by the book (i.e. John Long's Big Walls), you are supposed to tie in on a bite about every 30' or so. The problem is that right after tying in (just like when you first start jugging the line, the rope doesn't weigh enough to pull itself through your bottom jumar. You end up jugging the top jumar up and pulling slack through the bottom one.

My thought was to, instead of tying in on a bite every 30', to put a prusik above the top jumar and clip it into the biner on my daisy. This way the prusik is pushed up the rope and in the VERY unlikely case both jumars pop off the rope, the prusik will tighten.

What do you think? Am I gonna die? Do you have better suggestions?

Well, you might not die from falling while using that method, but you sure as hell will die of old age before you reach the top.

Google-about for ascending fixed lines. There are tons of threads here, on ST, on RC, and they usually all migrate to the same solutions.

I don't big wall, but are you really suggesting that you might have a solution that works better than what he and every other legend have worked out is the way to do something over the past however many years? Why not just go with the standard proven approach for a while? You don't want to be the guy who finds out why something doesn't work when you are halfway up the captain. My two cents.

I'm not too sure how you got that I thought my idea was better, I just know that there is more than one way to do things in almost every aspect of climbing, especially on big walls. For example, chapter 8 of the Big Walls books describes using a 1:1 haul system with two jumars. I know for a fact that using a mini-trax is a faster setup than tow jumars. Just sayin. Don't be so close-minded. None of these legends ever got up bigwalls without thinking outside the box!

I think it's bight, not bite. A bight of rope.

Anyways, I never tie into a bight when ascending with proper gear. I always use one ascender and one GriGri to jug a line. The GriGri is a backup in itself, making the process of tying in on a bight every 30 feet over redundant.

I also use a gri gri because it gives you more control in case you need to descend for any reason, it's faster to set up, and uses less gear. Plus, I'm a lot faster w/ a GriGri.

it all depends on the nature of the wall. if it's overhanging... tie a bight once per pitch, if it's real ledgy use a gri gri/jug combo. lots of snagging flakes/cracks? keep the rope looped close to you. point is it all depends... big walls are all about making it work, and staying efficient. also, you should get comfortable enough to pull the trigger on your lower jug and slide it when the rope isn't heavy enough

instead of tying in short with bights every 30 feet just clip your gri into your belay loop, you have to pull the rope through it for the first 30 feet or so but after that the weight of the rope auto feeds. if you don't own a gri gri yet you need to get one, I can't imagine belaying a new aid leader or any aid leader for that matter without one. you can nap, eat food, change clothes, and even take a dump while still keeping the leader safely on belay!

I had this same problem when I first started jugging but figured out a solution. The key to releasing the lower ascender from the rope is to maintain downward pressure with your foot in the etrier while you use your thumb to release the cam mechanism. As you feel the teeth on the lower ascender release from the rope (while opening the cam mechanism), concurrently decrease the downward pressure on the rope with your foot. Sounds complicated at first but once you get into a rhythm, it'll become second nature.

With the teeth of the ascender free from the rope, the rope should pass through with ease. Also, I found that if you take shorter strides while jugging, not only is this more efficient but this also helps the rope pass through the lower ascender. Try it and you'll see.

As for tying bights versus using a Grigri as a back-up, I have always favored tying bights for the following reasons:

1) Helps with rope management while jugging. An unmanageable loop of rope below you WILL get stuck at some point and waste time
2) Helps with rope management while at the belay station. If you're belaying the next pitch, then you have the lead rope organized (and directionally flaked if you're good about it; adding back-up knots on your locker in order) for your leader to blast off. If you're going to lead the next pitch, it's one simple step to get rid of the rope (still organized by your neatly arranged back-up knots)
3) Arguably, a tiny smidgen safer than using a Grigri. And yes, I'm braced for debate on this one :)

Good luck!

Charles Savel wrote:Does anybody have a link to a photo or a video with the ascender and Grigri with pulley (2:1)setup? I've searched without to much luck, found plenty of talk about the setup but no illustrations, pictures, or video. I'm almost certain that I understand what you all mean with rigging a pulley from the handled ascender to achieve a 2:1 with the Grigri but I just want to make sure. I've never jugged ropes on a rock route but have used frog and ropewalker systems for years in caves. I like the idea of the Grigri as part of the system since you can ascend/rapel with it without doing a change-over, and it only adds a handled ascender/footloop to what most already climb with.

http://www.mountainproject.com/v/big_wall_and_aid_climbing/the_better_way_to_clean_an_aid_pitch/106076312

Scroll down about halfway.

chockstone.org/TechTips/Jug…

This isn't exactly what you're after but I had already uploaded it for a similar thread.

In the picture, my hand is on the brake rope of the Gri Gri. Now see the locker between the ascender and the aid ladder. Imagine another biner (preferably a DMM Revolver) clipped to that locker, w/ the brake rope clipped into the Revolver. Then you are pulling down on the rope instead of up. I find it easier of vertical terrain to have the pulley setup, and easier on steep terrain to go w/ one one.

Notice in the picture that I don't have an extra biner holding the rope into the ascender, nor do I have the ascender attached to my harness in any way. I got into these bad habits because I usually jug lines to bolt, and I'm constantly moving things around so the less clutter the better. A Gri Gri makes less clutter possible. I do have the locker that is on the ascender clipped around the rope though, so if it does pop off the rope I won't drop it.

After having read daniel's post, I think I'll try the bights and will flake the rope to set up the next belay. This makes a lot of sense if you are following a leader. I usually jug fixed lines which is why I do it my way... I'm not usually tied into the same rope that I'm ascending so no big loops hanging down.

Wow after seeing Pete's post I feel a little silly posting my picture.

I have jumarred many thousands of feet and have never bothered with knots, prussics or the grigri backup. Just make sure you are daisied in properly and trust the ascenders. On very steep terrain it helps to have your lower ascender clipped directly to your belay loop.

Ed Wright wrote:I have jumarred many thousands of feet and have never bothered with knots, prussics or the grigri backup. Just make sure you are daisied in properly and trust the ascenders. On very steep terrain it helps to have your lower ascender clipped directly to your belay loop.

I am going to have to respectfully but wholeheartedly disagree with Ed. What Ed is suggesting is dangerous and inefficient. Allow me to strike down both recommendations:
1) Ed recs no back-up, trust the ascenders. What about on traversing terrain? Often you need to take off an ascender to pass a piece of pro. At this point, you only have one ascender keeping you from decking. A somewhat sketchy ascender connection if its traversing terrain where the ascender is prone to twisting. MY REC: BACK-UP IS STILL IMPORTANT!!
2) Ed recs no knots. What about cleaning a 150 ft pitch? That leaves you with a 75 ft loop of rope below you when you reach the next belay. Anyone who climbs knows that the probability of this loop getting stuck is not insignificant. MY REC: KNOT-UP THE LOOP SO THAT IT CAN BE MANAGED!!

Hey Ryan - that photo is sick! Where is that?

Ton Sai Tower on Koh Phi Don in Thailand if I am correct. Such a beautiful piece of rock... :)

daniel c wrote: I am going to have to respectfully but wholeheartedly disagree with Ed. What Ed is suggesting is dangerous and inefficient. Allow me to strike down both recommendations: 1) Ed recs no back-up, trust the ascenders. What about on traversing terrain? Often you need to take off an ascender to pass a piece of pro. At this point, you only have one ascender keeping you from decking. A somewhat sketchy ascender connection if its traversing terrain where the ascender is prone to twisting. MY REC: BACK-UP IS STILL IMPORTANT!! 2) Ed recs no knots. What about cleaning a 150 ft pitch? That leaves you with a 75 ft loop of rope below you when you reach the next belay. Anyone who climbs knows that the probability of this loop getting stuck is not insignificant. MY REC: KNOT-UP THE LOOP SO THAT IT CAN BE MANAGED!!

Well, you're not wrong. I almost added a qualifier about jumarring a traverse but decided not to obfuscate the issue. Yes, in that case I would do things differently.

I've done most of my jugging on fixed ropes, not a rope that I'm also tied into so, yeah, in that case you don't want that big loop hanging down where it can get caught on something.

daniel c wrote:Hey Ryan - that photo is sick! Where is that?

Yea it's on Phi Phi in Thailand. Spent a lot of time on that thing... made a few mistakes but learned A LOT!

The problem is that right after tying in (just like when you first start jugging the line, the rope doesn't weigh enough to pull itself through your bottom jumar. You end up jugging the top jumar up and pulling slack through the bottom one.

Not sure what ascenders you are using, but I use my thumb to release the lower jug by a couple millimeters (of course don't be a moron and remove it from the rope) when near a tie in...worked well with yellow "original" Jumars and also the blue/gold petzls. Can't speak to any newfangled hardware...

James Arnold wrote:The problem is that right after tying in (just like when you first start jugging the line, the rope doesn't weigh enough to pull itself through your bottom jumar. You end up jugging the top jumar up and pulling slack through the bottom one. Not sure what ascenders you are using, but I use my thumb to release the lower jug by a couple millimeters (of course don't be a moron and remove it from the rope) when near a tie in...worked well with yellow "original" Jumars and also the blue/gold petzls. Can't speak to any newfangled hardware...

+1

To clarify; use your thumb to directly manipulate the cam and partially release the rope. Depending on how you are grabbing the ascender you can use your index finger instead.

Great point. I totally forgot to mention the part about releasing the cam mechanism in my post above. Thought it was obvious but in fact, it's not obvious at all. Thanks for clarifying. Edits to my previous post have been made.