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Jtree static line TR extension question
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By jtmann
From O
Nov 16, 2013
Question - If I use 10.5 millimeter static rope to extend my top rope from the master point of my gear anchor (3-4 pieces equalized with a cordlette) do I need to double it (static line is already tied in a loop) or can I just use it as a single line.

I usually double it up, but recently extended it just as a single line using a figure eight on a bight on each end to clip the climbing rope on one end and into the master point of the cordlette on the other. I know this is not redundant, but either is the 10.5 rope I am climbing on.

Thoughts?

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By Daniel Evans
From Twentynine Palms, CA
Nov 17, 2013
Are you going to die? Probably not. But it's not redundant, so no. It's not hard to make an anchor redundant. Take the extra time and effort to do so.

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By vincent L.
From Redwood City
Nov 17, 2013
First day of school
I would feel comfortable TRing on that . Are you certain there are no sharp edges the static might contact?

The static will move and stretch slightly as it is weighted and unweighted . That movement against an edge or abrasion might be dangerous.

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By Muff
Nov 17, 2013
.
True this is not redundant. First off, it is good to see someone who actually comprehends extending an anchor over the lip or far enough down the rock that it isn't dragging the dynamic rope over abrasive surfaces or sharp edges. It surprises me how often I see people who are grinding their ropes out and doing outright asinine and sometimes dangerous things on a top rope.

So to answer your question of whether this system is unsafe or not. Generally I will say you're fine as you're working with a 10.5 static line. This is a much beefier piece of anchor building gear than most people employ but its a nice piece to have. It would take a A LOT of force over a sharp edge to cut all the way through the static line. It also takes a lot of dragging a cable this size over abrasive rock to coreshot it or damage it. With that being said, you can still screw things up. If you were to have the static line tied in a loop it would create redundancy assuming you tie a master point. However, this isn't always necessary in the name of safety. If you do in fact use the static line as a single cable, just make sure it is extended beyond anything that could damage it or cut through it. In most cases you would be aware that such things would happen well before they actually do. If you are setting up a top rope that has multiple climbs from all angles under it. Make sure to pad the edges of the rock with a pack or even carpet. It is also possible to take tubular webbing and feed the static line through the webbing to create an extra layer of protection. This all quite honestly is overkill but good practice. Everything we use in climbing is overkill. 25kn carabiners...

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By david doucette
Nov 17, 2013
Top of Intersection Rock, Joshua Tree NP.
jtmann wrote:
I usually double it up, but recently extended it just as a single line using a figure eight on a bight on each end to clip the climbing rope on one end and into the master point of the cordlette on the other. I know this is not redundant, but either is the 10.5 rope I am climbing on. Thoughts?


i wouldn't do that. that is the same as only using one piece of webbing or one piece of anything. you're essentially toproping on one piece of rope. there is no redundancy. if that one piece of rope or webbing goes, your anchor fails. with the static rope you have, there is no reason to do that setup. you can make a better system using the static line you already have.

here's the way i do it that works for me;

using static line to make a V is my preferred method.

i took an anchoring class years ago at jtree and still use the method one of the instructors taught. it's the simplest method and i've used it hundreds of times to set up TR anchors.

it involves some webbing and static line (my static line might be 25' or so) like you have. here's my basic setup and the order in which i do it;

1. loop boulder with webbing. i almost am always able to sling a bolder with webbing. i use a 50' length of webbing so i can sling most boulders.

2. clip a locker to the webbing that is looped around the boulder. take one end of static line, tie a figure eight on a bight and clip it to the locker.

3. now run my static line to over the edge to see where i want my powerpoint. like Muff suggested, i use a 3' of webbing over the static line where my powerpoint is. i now make my powerpoint and hang it over the edge.

4. put three ovals on the powerpoint, attach the rope and toss it over. the power point should be sitting exactly where you want it over the edge and the rope should be running smoothly over the biners.

5. now take the other end of the static line and run it back to two cams that are put into cracks. i make a double loop figure eight now (see lueben's climbing anchors book page 220-221) and put a bunny ear on each cam. cinch everything down and you essentially have created a V with your static line. it is now redundant because you have 2 lines going to your powerpoint. if one gives, you got the other one. everything is equalized fairly well and taught.

couple of points. there are people who will TR off 3 cams I don't do that. if i'm using only cams, i'll always do 4. i'll do a sliding knot to bring two together then do the procedure i just described.

as i said, 90% of the time i'm able to sling a boulder, it's just the method i prefer and it doesn't take me anymore time to set it up. i've done this on atlantis, dairy queen, thin wall, trashcan, playhouse.

in summary, boulder/webbing for one end of the static line, two cams for the other end of the static line. safe, simple, efficient, and fast setup.

i never ever have webbing going over the edge, because that's what i use the static line for. i only use webbing to sling a boulder. static line is the best method for TR setup in my opinion.

static line going over an edge is fine. i've been using the same static line for 10 years and it's still solid. i've had that over many edges in jtree. i check it everytime i go out. the 3' piece of webbing on the powerpoint does need to be replaced, i just haven't gotten around to do that yet. static rope stretches very little, if at all.

hope that helps!

david

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By jtmann
From O
Nov 17, 2013
Thanks everyone for the responses. David, I have used the "V" method you described (and have studied the same anchor book you referenced). I seem to have trouble obtaining good equalization with this method. I feel like one end of the static rope is pulling more weight off of either the slung boulder or the cams on the other end. I guess I just need to practice this more. Thanks again.

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By cdec
From SLC and Moab, ut
Nov 17, 2013
1. Take an anchor clinic with Marcus Jollif.
2. If you won't do that figure out how to use the static line with a BHK to create a MASTER-point and achieve redundancy.
3 If you have enough static depending on the anchoring components used you may be able to eliminated the cordelette all together.

Good luck, be safe.

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By Sean Peter
From IL
Nov 17, 2013
You're not gonna get perfect equalization, but with a TR it's not that crucial. Getting it very close is good. One end of static line to sling a boulder. Two cams for the other side of the v. BHK or similar for masterpoint. Use a sliding x or cordlette to equalize the two cams, then clove hitch the static line to the sliding biner on the x.. That lets you tinker with the slack way easier and you can get both lines of the v taught quite quickly. Then just back up the clove (lots of people don't - it's a safe knot but just LOOKS meager.)

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By cdec
From SLC and Moab, ut
Nov 17, 2013
SeanPeter2 wrote:
You're not gonna get perfect equalization, but with a TR it's not that crucial.


Couldn't disagree more. With a BHK it is possible to equalize a top rope rope anchor very easily.
Anchors SB equalized, not sort of equalized. It is critical as large loads can be generated in Troping.

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By Sean Peter
From IL
Nov 17, 2013
I don't disagree. It should be very well equalized and is easily done so. But there are loads of tests from sterling ropes and the like that show you'll never get PERFECT equalization. But to the eye and the very rough method of feeling the tension in both legs by hand- its easy to get it very close. But I wouldn't kill myself on a TR setup to go so far as to use a huge loop of static line to make a mega-equalette that would achieve a much closer to perfect equalization.

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By hikingdrew
From Los Angeles, CA
Nov 17, 2013
dorky helmet
I would make every effort to double the static back to the anchors. With a single strand, not only is it not redundant, but the stretch from weighting and unweighting will be greater and the rope will wear sooner, especially at JTree. Also, if the edge is that far away, then the stretch will be even more. Using some 1" tubular or a piece of carpet to protect the edge is a really good idea.

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By Russ Walling
From www.FishProducts.com
Nov 17, 2013
Russ
It is critical as large loads can be generated in Troping

Really? Define "large".

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By Joshua Reinig
Nov 17, 2013
Last pitch of The Nose!
JTmann
What you are referring to is the Fox method of building a TR anchor. It is AMGA standard for large extensions over edges . Learn how to do it with an instructors tether and it will make it safe and easy to get to your master point !

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By david doucette
Nov 17, 2013
Top of Intersection Rock, Joshua Tree NP.
jtmann wrote:
Thanks everyone for the responses. David, I have used the "V" method you described (and have studied the same anchor book you referenced). I seem to have trouble obtaining good equalization with this method. I feel like one end of the static rope is pulling more weight off of either the slung boulder or the cams on the other end. I guess I just need to practice this more. Thanks again.


the trick to equalizing is;

1. set it up with step 1-4 as described. the weight of the rope keeps that side taught.

2. the trick to equalize now is using the double loop figure eight. playing with each ear will give your system perfect equalization but it does take practice get the double ears as you have to keep pulling one and pushing the other. but these ears are the key to the equalization system.

so yeah, practice with the double loop figure eight and you'll be able to setup a perfectly equalized system anywhere.

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By cdec
From SLC and Moab, ut
Nov 17, 2013
hikingdrew wrote:
I would make every effort to double the static back to the anchors. With a single strand, not only is it not redundant, but the stretch from weighting and unweighting will be greater and the rope will wear sooner, especially at JTree.


Oh god. Please take an anchor clinic. Single strands tied with a BHK is redundant.

Russ,
1500 pounds/7ish KN.
Enough that components of an anchor could fail, especially if shock loaded in a poorly equalized anchor.

rockandice.com/lates-news/top-...

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By Russ Walling
From www.FishProducts.com
Nov 17, 2013
Russ
Russ,
1500 pounds/7ish KN.

www.rockandice.com/lates-news/top-roping-is-not-so-safe


Granted that is a pretty big number but the method used to get the number by R&I was a little suspect. I wish they had more info about the test methods in the article.

In the real world, toprope falls should be more like their first set of tests which showed numbers much more reasonable, and less than half of the 1500lbs reported.

As to the OP: 10.5 static to good anchors with two strands going down to the climbing rope is best and so beyond bomber it is funny. One strand is mostly likely fine too, but there are really too many variables to declare this on the internet.

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By jtmann
From O
Nov 17, 2013
Thanks for all the posts. Just seeing that there is a debate over the matter is enough for me to make sure to use two strands of the static rope. I guess I was just trying to make the TR setup quicker. Although it is probably safe with the single strand, it's probably better to take the extra few minutes to make it all redundant. Thanks all.

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By hikingdrew
From Los Angeles, CA
Nov 18, 2013
dorky helmet
cdec wrote:
Oh god. Please take an anchor clinic. Single strands tied with a BHK is redundant.


I have, but I think you misunderstood. I don't mean double the static back to each of the anchors, just that there are two strands, one to each anchor, and a BHK in the middle. This is what was recommended by our rock instructor.

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By Guy Keesee
From Moorpark, CA
Nov 18, 2013
Big Boulder, just a bit downhill from Temple of Kali. Alabama Hills, CA.
Listen to FISH.... he is big and beefy, like ME... and has a ton of experience loading anchors.

Just remember to be nice and not set up your TR on the classic - busy - climbs.

It gets pretty old to go to JT and find folks TRing climbs that they have zero chance of getting up. .... read HOT ROCKS

Last time I was there we did our warm ups and then hiked over to the "goal route", we sit down and wait for the party on the climb to clear out - but they had promised the route to another party....a TR comes flying down...Ok we can wait a bit more... NONE of them could even do the opening moves!

Then, even though they couldn't climb the route, they started holding CLASSES for all the GF's and Kids.

I went over to the leader, and quietly asked if we could pull his TR out of the way....and quickly climb the thing.. but he said NO-WAY.

So we left.....

Please dont be that Douche Bag.... share the climbs.

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By Ryan Nevius
From The Range of Light
Nov 18, 2013
Mt. Agassiz
Good thing there are a few thousand other routes at Josh.

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By doak
From boulder, co
Nov 18, 2013
Drinking with Moses
By all means, double up the static line.

But, considering that big wall climbers commonly jumar a single line, and sport climbers take huge whippers on a skinny rope, and that the toprope line itself is non-redundant, I'd say you're fine not doubling it up.

Also, it's technically not true that the static rope extension is not redundant, since there is a bundle of independent core strands.

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By Guy Keesee
From Moorpark, CA
Nov 18, 2013
Big Boulder, just a bit downhill from Temple of Kali. Alabama Hills, CA.
""Good thing there are a few thousand other routes at Josh.""

Thank God for that.

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By MJMobes
From The land of steady habits
Nov 18, 2013
modern man
Ryan Nevius wrote:
Good thing there are a few thousand other routes at Josh.


lol

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By Lou Hibbard
From Eagan, MN
Nov 30, 2013
One other thing to consider is just toproping from on top. No need to extend the anchor. Especially at Jtree if you lead one good gear route and want to do the poor gear route next door it's a lot faster to just belay from on top. Rap on one tied off rope strand and climb.

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By Lee Green
Dec 2, 2013
When I was climbing in PA I found I needed to extend my TR anchor a ways. As I was mostly on a kayak trip, I didn't have a lot of my gear with me, but I found an effective and surprisingly cheap solution. I picked up a cargo strap at a truck stop. Sure, it was a single line, but rated at 54,000 lb (about 240 kN) I think making it redundant would be pretty redundant. It's 4" wide, very abrasion-resistant, extends over a cliff edge with a nice wide contact area so it holds up well. Even has a sewn loop in one end, perfect for a locking 'biner.

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