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Is this space too small for a woodie?
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By ChuiSan
Nov 9, 2012

I have finally talked hubby into building a woodie at our home but the space we have is only about 10.5'x 11' with a 6'3" ceiling. am I wasting our time and money?

If we do it, I would probably put a 10x8 at 45deg (with a 6" kicker) on one of the 10.5 wall which will come out about 6' on the ceiling and then a 8x6.5 30deg on the opposite wall, I will have about a foot on the ceiling between the 2 walls which I will put a couple of roof jugs on so I can go up one wall and down the other. I will probably get the HIT system for the 45 wall but I am not sure how many I can fit on it with the low ceiling.

you comments are much appreciated.


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By Danger-Russ Gordon
From Tempe, AZ
Nov 9, 2012
Slope on a rope

I'm no expert, so I don't take my own opinion too seriously, but if I were you I would go for it.


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By kennoyce
From Layton, UT
Nov 9, 2012
Climbing at the Gallery in Red Rocks

ChuiSan wrote:
Is this space too small for a woodie?


That all depends on the size of your woodie;)


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By Lanky
From Portland, ME
Nov 9, 2012

Sounds like a reasonable plan. Be sure to consider the possibility of swinging back and hitting the wall behind you if your feet cut while climbing the 45.

Free advice: skip the hit strips. They're too juggy for real training, IMO. I think you'd be better off buying some matched sets of holds or other system holds instead.


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By kBobby
From Spokane, WA
Nov 9, 2012

ChuiSan, take some big bedsheets and mock it up. Tape the sheets to the walls and ceiling where you anticipate the woody will be. This will give you an excellent idea of whether or not the space is too small.

If it feels too small, just make a less steep wall and incorporate smaller holds.


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By ChuiSan
Nov 10, 2012

kennoyce wrote:
That all depends on the size of your woodie;)


The bigger the better obviously :D


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By ChuiSan
Nov 10, 2012

Lanky & kBobby - Thanks for the advice about hitting the wall and setting up bedsheets.

Re making it less steep, that would mean less climbing area and less upward movements with the low ceiling :(


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By Jon Zucco
From Denver, CO
Nov 10, 2012
yaak crack Red Rock Canyon, NV

ChuiSan wrote:
The bigger the better obviously :D


it's not the size of the woodie. it's the quality of the route.


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By Old Timer
Administrator
From North Andover MA
Nov 11, 2012

No, it's not too short! My home wall is in a basement with a 7 foot ceiling and when you put the wall angle at 45 degrees I can consistently set boulder problems with 5-10 moves. Make some plywood volumes and just get some decent 1/4 pad and 1/2 pad handhold sets and realize that the wall is to develop power and finger strength, not endurance. Good Luck


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By ChuiSan
Nov 11, 2012

Thanks Old Timer, that's reassuring even though your ceiling is a whole 9" higher than mine :D (my friends didn't think I could do more than a couple of moves on an eight foot long wall). What size kicker do you have?

I think I will go for it, off to search for t-nuts ...


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By Andy Librande
From Denver, CO
Nov 12, 2012
Me in the Buddha Cave at crumblewood a while ago.

ChuiSan wrote:
off to search for t-nuts ...


Here is a link to all of the places that I could find that sell T-nuts, the prices should be pretty close: andylibrande.com/homeclimbingwall/2011/07/t-nut-shopping/


Your wall will be small but doable. However the overall expense will be pretty low in materials so it could be a cheap training tool. Just don't buy a bunch of holds at first until you are sure you like it as holds are by far the most expensive thing on a wall.


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By ChuiSan
Nov 13, 2012

Thanks Andy. That t-nut list was very helpful, I think cheapholds has the best price now for 1000 with the 15% off and free shipping. Do you think putting around 200 per 4x8 is a bit overkill?


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By Kevin Stricker
From Evergreen, CO
Nov 13, 2012

200 sounds about right. My favorite pattern is a 4" x 8" grid offset every row by 4" beginning 2" from the edges. (row 1:2",10",18",26",34",42" . Row 2:6",14",22",30",38",46").You end up with a 6" spacing diagonally between T nuts and can still use 16" OC framing. If you go with a 6" t-nut spacing you always have at least 2 rows that conflict with the framing no matter the offset, and 4" spacing is a bit overkill.

As for drilling, stack all the sheets and screw/clamp them together at least 4 at once. Buy a cheap drill press attachment for your corded drill and a decent brad point drill. Set the limit stop on the drill press to drill about 1/2 way through your bottom sheet. Now you only have to do your layout once, and you can use your bottom sheet as a template for the rest of your sheets. You also only have to worry about drilling one unbacked sheet(use scrap 2x4 to drill into).


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By ChuiSan
Nov 13, 2012

Kevin Stricker wrote:
200 sounds about right. My favorite pattern is a 4" x 8" grid offset every row by 4" beginning 2" from the edges. (row 1:2",10",18",26",34",42" . Row 2:6",14",22",30",38",46").You end up with a 6" spacing diagonally between T nuts and can still use 16" OC framing. If you go with a 6" t-nut spacing you always have at least 2 rows that conflict with the framing no matter the offset, and 4" spacing is a bit overkill. As for drilling, stack all the sheets and screw/clamp them together at least 4 at once. Buy a cheap drill press attachment for your corded drill and a decent brad point drill. Set the limit stop on the drill press to drill about 1/2 way through your bottom sheet. Now you only have to do your layout once, and you can use your bottom sheet as a template for the rest of your sheets. You also only have to worry about drilling one unbacked sheet(use scrap 2x4 to drill into).


Thanks for the great advice about drilling. Just want to get this right, do you separate the rows by 4"? Horizontally, they are spaced by 8", so 4" between rows, I will get 192 t-nuts per panel.

Would there be any conflict with the framing if I do 4" horizontally and vertically offset? Since I am getting 1000 t-nuts and will only have room for 4.5 panels, I may do 1 panel with more t-nuts...

Thanks!


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By Princess Mia
From Vail
Nov 13, 2012
Chillin' at City of Rocks

Small space = small woodie


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By Kevin Stricker
From Evergreen, CO
Nov 13, 2012

Yes, 4" horizontally between rows( typically lay plywood panels horizontally) with 8" between t-nuts vertically.

I have built a couple walls with 4" spacing both ways, if you have the t-nuts then go for it. It is a lot more drilling though.

Realize that the top of your top panel does not need the last row of t-nuts drilled to 2" from the edge as you usually want jugs at the top. If you are building two sides that join with a small roof panel you may want to frame and sheath both of your big walls then add sleepers(horizontal 2x4's layed flat) to mount your roof panel to. This will let you only have to do any tapered cuts on the roof panel to meet up with the main walls. If you make these cuts with a 45degree bevel you get a nice tight joint.

Depending on the orientation of your rafters/joists realize you may need to have both of the top plates sitting on sleepers already. If you haven't yet I would recommend looking at the How To guide on the Metolius website for building walls. It is the best guideline I have found. Over engineering a wall really does not add much to the cost, I would frame your 45 wall with 2x8's, and hang the stringers(joists) from joist hangers.


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By ChuiSan
Nov 14, 2012

Kevin Stricker wrote:
Yes, 4" horizontally between rows( typically lay plywood panels horizontally) with 8" between t-nuts vertically. I have built a couple walls with 4" spacing both ways, if you have the t-nuts then go for it. It is a lot more drilling though. Realize that the top of your top panel does not need the last row of t-nuts drilled to 2" from the edge as you usually want jugs at the top. If you are building two sides that join with a small roof panel you may want to frame and sheath both of your big walls then add sleepers(horizontal 2x4's layed flat) to mount your roof panel to. This will let you only have to do any tapered cuts on the roof panel to meet up with the main walls. If you make these cuts with a 45degree bevel you get a nice tight joint. Depending on the orientation of your rafters/joists realize you may need to have both of the top plates sitting on sleepers already. If you haven't yet I would recommend looking at the How To guide on the Metolius website for building walls. It is the best guideline I have found. Over engineering a wall really does not add much to the cost, I would frame your 45 wall with 2x8's, and hang the stringers(joists) from joist hangers.


Thanks Kevin,

You are right, it will be a lot of extra drilling for just 1 panel, I may just put them in randomly after doing the grid you suggested.

is texture paint worth the effort & money? How much does it help with hold spinning?


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By Andy Librande
From Denver, CO
Nov 14, 2012
Me in the Buddha Cave at crumblewood a while ago.

ChuiSan wrote:
is texture paint worth the effort & money? How much does it help with hold spinning?


Not on a steep indoor wall. Most holds will not spin to begin with. For my bigger holds adding a screw to them on the edge stops all spinning. Most new holds come with a pilot-hole if they are sizable.

Also having extra t-nuts allows for you to build volumes, which are an awesome addition to your wall and are cheap/easy to build.


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By Adam F.
Nov 14, 2012

I have used a hammer drill to make my own holds from real rock. 3/16 hole for countersunk deck screws. Then you can put the holds wherever you want and are not limited by the T nuts.

I would even be willing to sell a few if you want to check them out.
Here are a few I have made:

Rock Holds
Rock Holds


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By Woodchuck ATC
Nov 14, 2012
Rock Wars, RRG, 2008

Adam F. wrote:
I have used a hammer drill to make my own holds from real rock. 3/16 hole for countersunk deck screws. Then you can put the holds wherever you want and are not limited by the T nuts. I would even be willing to sell a few if you want to check them out. Here are a few I have made:



Are those sandstone or something much harder? So many drilled sandstone holds just break throuth the holes with a forceful foot hold or dyno.


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By ChuiSan
Nov 14, 2012

Andy Librande wrote:
Not on a steep indoor wall. Most holds will not spin to begin with. For my bigger holds adding a screw to them on the edge stops all spinning. Most new holds come with a pilot-hole if they are sizable. Also having extra t-nuts allows for you to build volumes, which are an awesome addition to your wall and are cheap/easy to build.


Great idea to add volumes, I will save the extra t-nuts for that!


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By ChuiSan
Nov 14, 2012

Adam F. wrote:
I have used a hammer drill to make my own holds from real rock. 3/16 hole for countersunk deck screws. Then you can put the holds wherever you want and are not limited by the T nuts. I would even be willing to sell a few if you want to check them out. Here are a few I have made:


Thanks for the suggestion and offer, as Andy suggested, I will build the wall first and make sure I like it before I get too many holds, I have collected a few used ones from craigslist to get started for now.


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By Kevin Stricker
From Evergreen, CO
Nov 14, 2012

If you go through the effort to paint your wall you should add some shark-grip or other non skid additive. More than texture they help keep the paint from sticking to your holds and peeling off when you move them. Use a good 100% Acrylic floor paint for maximum durability. I prefer the look of raw or polyurethaned walls but the toe drag marks from beginners can look pretty bad after a while.


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By Adam F.
Nov 15, 2012

Reply to Woodchuck ATC: They are Fountain Sandstone which is very hard. I have also used Phonolite which is like the stone of Penetente canyon.

My experince is if they make it through drilling they are OK and won't break. I have a couple hundred that I have been using for over 10 years and have never had one break after drilling.


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By Kevin Hilgert
Nov 15, 2012

ChuiSan wrote:
Thanks Andy. That t-nut list was very helpful, I think cheapholds has the best price now for 1000 with the 15% off and free shipping. Do you think putting around 200 per 4x8 is a bit overkill?


I am building a woody myself, and researched t-nut prices too, and really you cannot beat element climbing right now... %25 off their list price and t-nuts in quantity ship free. 2000 t-nuts for ~$143 (just a little over 7 cents each).


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By Will S
From Joshua Tree
Nov 15, 2012

Personally, I wouldn't spend the time or money for such a small space...not so much the L x W dimensions, but the height. Unless you live a long ways from a gym, I'd take the money you'd spend on wood, holds, and t-nuts and buy a gym membership instead.

The only people I know who've built woodies and continued to use them over time are the people with enough space (and some pysched training partners) who didn't have a gym nearby. For my own needs, anything less than about 10' of buildable height isn't worth the effort. YMMV of course.

For me, to be psyched on home woodie training, I'd need to go the Moon School Room board route, where you can easily replicate problems other people have designed at consensus grades, or with something very small like you are proposing, I'd go the symmetrical layout route and train mirror image moves/sequences instead of trying to set unique "boulder problems" on the board. The Hubers did something similar in their early training. It would be more boring than regular bouldering type work, but hangboarding is insanely boring and I don't have a problem doing that season after season, year after year.


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