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is this a safe top rope anchor?
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By Aleksei Potov
Apr 19, 2013
Hello,

Please critique if this is a safe top rope anchor I built:

I'm using 10.2mm dynamic short rope, one end is clipped to a locker with fig 8 on a bight with a backup, other locker clipped with clove hitch (for adjustments) and backed up with overhand knot. Master point is fig 8 on a bight with two ovals.

anchor
anchor

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By bearbreeder
Apr 19, 2013
pad wherever it goes over the edges ...

and you wont die from it ...

but now that youve asked about a TR anchor be prepared for the total shiet storm that inevitably follows on the multiple ways youll die if you dont set up yr anchor EXACTLY the way some intrawebber demands

;)

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By divnamite
From New York, NY
Apr 19, 2013
Aleksei Potov wrote:
Hello, Please critique if this is a safe top rope anchor I built: I'm using 10.2mm dynamic short rope, one end is clipped to a locker with fig 8 on a bight with a backup, other locker clipped with clove hitch (for adjustments) and backed up with overhand knot. Master point is fig 8 on a bight with two steel ovals.

It's fine. I don't like non-locking carabiners for top rope (I saw two non-locking biners twisted and always opened one time).

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By Adam Stackhouse
Administrator
Apr 19, 2013
Courtright Reservoir, September 2013
May not be ideal, but it'll work. Steel?

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By Evan Sanders
From Westminster, CO
Apr 19, 2013
Flaming Pumpkin
divnamite wrote:
It's fine. I don't like non-locking carabiners for top rope (I saw two non-locking biners twisted and always opened one time).


Opposite and opposing. It would take quite a bit to get the rope to come out of either biner if you do that. Facing the same direction, no not a fan.

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By Evan Sanders
From Westminster, CO
Apr 19, 2013
Flaming Pumpkin
I personally don't think that door frame will hold the necessary force, but to each their own.

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By FrankPS
From Atascadero, CA
Apr 19, 2013
That's a fine anchor, but backup knots are unnecessary.

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By BGardner
From Seattle, WA
Apr 19, 2013
Like bearbreeder said "pad wherever it goes over the edges ... "

Its fine but since your looking for feedback:

You're putting your energy into backing up the wrong part. Your basically creating redundant redundancy at the clip-in points but still have a single point of failure at the master-point.
A Figure-eight-knot never needs a backup (except in gyms that don't trust you to tie your knot) and a clove hitch in the middle of the rope is good to go too.
You're not hurting anything with the extra backups, but if your going to bother backing anything up it should be your master point. Two figure-eights side by side equalized (aka: bunny-ear eights) is one easy way. You can also get someone to teach you the double-overhand-on-a-bight which is the standard in AMGA SPI courses.

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By Larry S
Apr 19, 2013
The wife and I road-trippin on the Connie.
It's totally fine, i'd climb on it.

If i were building it, the only thing i would do differently with the same materials is to double up the master point with two fig-8's size by side. The single loop at the masterpoint is 1 point of failure if it somehow got cut. Not really a big concern for you as you're using full size rope but if you were building it with smaller cord, i'd just double up so there is no single point of failure in the anchor. I like knowing that no single thing up there can get messed up and cause a failure.

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By BoulderCharles
Apr 19, 2013
It does work but (at the risk of sounding like a jerk) why not use one of the faster, easier TR set ups? A 10' loop of 8mm cord with a handful of lockers make a quick and easy anchor.

Regardless, I would drop the clove hitch (it can work itself loose if you don't keep pressure on it, which can happen when working on a climb) and add locking 'biners to each point (reversed and opposed).

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By divnamite
From New York, NY
Apr 19, 2013
Evan Sanders wrote:
Opposite and opposing. It would take quite a bit to get the rope to come out of either biner if you do that. Facing the same direction, no not a fan.

I always do that. What I saw was two opposite and opposing biners twisted together, the rope was probably still safe, but you never know.

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By Keeghan O'Brien
From Boston, MA
Apr 19, 2013
You should use static rope for top rope anchors, and your master point is not redundant, which is where redundancy matters most.

To fix this you could tie a BHK knot (double overhand on a bight), or "bunny ears" which are essentially two figure eight on a bights right next to eachother, and clipping both as the master point. A BHK knot is a little complicated to explain over text, but the end result is having more than one independent loop at the master point.

The overall concept is sound though, and is how I generally build toprope anchors with a static rope.

And clove hitchs are fine, will not come undone

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By Wannabe
Apr 19, 2013
I think it looks fine and pretty KISS. Of course I have an upgrade to offer. Consider using an BHK at the masterpoint or two eights on bights. I have a hard time believing the eight would be a problem if one end got cut but people are always saying, "YER GONNA DIE!!!" if your system isn't redundant. And well, really how much time would tying another eight cost you or just using the BHK?

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By Truck13
Apr 19, 2013
locking 'biners to each point (reversed and opposed)


Sounds like a belt and suspenders...what am I missing?

Truck13

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By Aleksei Potov
Apr 19, 2013
Adam Stackhouse wrote:
May not be ideal, but it'll work. Steel?

Edited, those are not steel, not sure what I was thinking, just old school heavy oval carabiners

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By Aleksei Potov
Apr 19, 2013
BGardner wrote:
Like bearbreeder said "pad wherever it goes over the edges ... " Its fine but since your looking for feedback: You're putting your energy into backing up the wrong part. Your basically creating redundant redundancy at the clip-in points but still have a single point of failure at the master-point. A Figure-eight-knot never needs a backup (except in gyms that don't trust you to tie your knot) and a clove hitch in the middle of the rope is good to go too. You're not hurting anything with the extra backups, but if your going to bother backing anything up it should be your master point. Two figure-eights side by side equalized (aka: bunny-ear eights) is one easy way. You can also get someone to teach you the double-overhand-on-a-bight which is the standard in AMGA SPI courses.


Thanks! That's definitely sounds like a good idea now - to backup master point. I assume by "bunny ears" you mean this - chockstone.org/TechTips/BunnyE...

Looks easy and does not add much time to setup.

PS. Fig 8 backup - gym is exactly where I'm coming from :)

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By Aleksei Potov
Apr 19, 2013
BoulderCharles wrote:
It does work but (at the risk of sounding like a jerk) why not use one of the faster, easier TR set ups? A 10' loop of 8mm cord with a handful of lockers make a quick and easy anchor. Regardless, I would drop the clove hitch (it can work itself loose if you don't keep pressure on it, which can happen when working on a climb) and add locking 'biners to each point (reversed and opposed).


Thanks! Reason for the post is that I got a cut of 15 meters of climbing rope from a friend, so I figured I could use that to setup an anchor instead of buying extra cord.
And you suggest to do another fig 8 on a bight instead of clove hitch? How would you adjust it to distribute load between bolts?

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By Jason Halladay
Administrator
From Los Alamos, NM
Apr 19, 2013
Climbing at the Belvedere crag near Nago with a gr...
Aleksei Potov wrote:
And you suggest to do another fig 8 on a bight instead of clove hitch? How would you adjust it to distribute load between bolts?

I'd stick with the adjustable clove-hitch with backup overhand on a bight like you have it. And like others have suggested, two figure-8s on a bight for your master point.

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By Brasky
Apr 19, 2013
thats a good anchor as long as its attached to bomber pieces or trees the rest is just different ways to do stuff thats fine... you could even use that as a muti[ich anchor and switch leads after the second comes up as long as the points are established for multidirctional pull

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By BGardner
From Seattle, WA
Apr 19, 2013
Aleksei Potov wrote:
Thanks! That's definitely sounds like a good idea now - to backup master point. I assume by "bunny ears" you mean this - chockstone.org/TechTips/BunnyE... Looks easy and does not add much time to setup.


While what is shown in that link is a step in the right direction it is not what I and (from how I interpret) other's post, are suggesting.
The knot in the link is great (I use it a lot for other things) but it is technically not redundant. The loop that flips over is a single point of failure. Cut that and everything goes. Of course the real world chance of it getting cut is small, but it is there.

what I was suggesting:
Just setup your first leg; Figure-8 clipped to bolt, figure out how long you need and tie another figure-8 (or overhand if you prefer) for half the master point.
Then tie another figure-8 about 6 inches further down the rope. Now run the rope back to the other bolt and attach your clove, clip all the lockers, hang the rope, then adjust your clove to get it equal.
You can look at it as two separate strands connected by about 6-inches of rope between the figure-8s at the master point.

This is a very simple and effective way to create a top-rope anchor when a standard cordellet is to short. Plus, this same setup easily expends to work with trees and boulders.

Aleksei Potov wrote:
PS. Fig 8 backup - gym is exactly where I'm coming from :)

Not surprising. I teach this stuff for a living and you are far from the first to do this.
Just remember, gyms are great but their bread and butter is having as many people as possible climbing with out any real over-site. They don't really have time to teach and supervise so many gyms figure it is better to just ask folks to tie multiple knots and hope that something will hold. That and many climbers just put backup knots on their eights for a variety of reasons and are used to seeing it that way, so that is what they teach others.

Plus, in your situation the eight is already backed up by the clove-hitch, so you've got your bases covered.

I would also add a locker to your master-point, or a third oval. I'll follow or clean a pitch on just two non-lockers, but if its going to be a full on toprope session with multiple people or lots of falling, a locker just makes sure that nothing can happen. Its cheap insurance.

As far as using the clove hitch goes, I think it is great. Just make sure you use a locker and snug it down by yanking on the loose strand and it is fine. Even if it did somehow magically loosen up, as long as you used a locker it will just snug right back down when weighted. If you use a non-locker it could theoretically loosen up enough to get a loop over the gate and unclip it self.
The only time I would want to see a backup knot for a clove-hitch is if the end of the rope is anywhere near. In which case I would probably use a different knot, but if you use the clove back it up with an overhand and clip the overhand into something. If you did ever have a loosen+tighten situation happen some rope will work its way through the clove and you don't want to risk the end of the rope slipping through.

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By wivanoff
Apr 19, 2013
High Exposure
I agree with Bearbreeder. Pad the edges, ovals O & O. It's fine. Not everything has to be redundant. I'd climb on it, no question.

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By nicelegs
From Denver
Apr 19, 2013
No. I have the same bar and if I remember correctly it is rated to 250lbs. Maybe 275. So really, it's just over one kilonewton. Maybe you could get 2 kn out of it with a very sturdy door frame.

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By Miike
From MA/CT border
Apr 19, 2013
my foot
I'd whip on it

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By cdec
From SLC and Moab, ut
Apr 19, 2013
BHK. Find someone to teach it to you. Once you know it it will become the only way you will set up an extended TR anchor. Eliminates the need to have the clove for adjustment or guessing where to tie fig 8's or having to tie two knots when one will do. You can tie the master point at any distance from the anchor points that works by simply doubling the strands back. Also creates redundancy which, if easily achieved, is never a bad idea.

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By NC Rock Climber
From The Oven, AKA Phoenix
Apr 19, 2013
tanuki
It is ok. I would climb on your anchor, and you are probably not going to die because of it. However, it is not "ideal."

A google search pointed me to:

opp.uoregon.edu/climbing/topic...

See Position Equalized Anchor and Constructing Anchors With A Cordelette. Good luck and be safe.

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By Miike
From MA/CT border
Apr 19, 2013
my foot
BHK stands for?

I see the bunny ears and a clove still being the best all around way to do this with rope.

Does the BHK master point work with webbing?

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