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Is A6+ even possible?
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By bigwallrog
From the farside
Sep 2, 2009
OK OK but what does anyone consider an A-6 placement and how many of them in a row to get the coveted A-6 ????

0 RP or HB NOPE..
tipped out beaks NOPE.
0 copperheads NOPE.
a copperhead time bomb NOPE, just a smart assed joker..
three threads of a rivet in a hole NOPE, just a smart ass joker ...
A pointed leeper on an ant turd sized crystal NOPE.
somthing pounded into the mud or a calcite seam NOPE..
counter opposed hooks or sm wires NOPE..
Expando NOPE..


SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO untill someone can explain to me an A-6
placement .

Ill stick with the original aid ratings of A-1 - A-5 or
the std NBD,PDH,RHU. It works ,it fits , and it's fine the way it is.

and leave the rest to the posers.....

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By Pat McGinn
Sep 2, 2009
Me on the belay of last unicorn pitch two.
If A5 really exists, shouldn't someone have to die for it to be A5? So shouldn't both of them have had to die for it to be A6+?

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By John McNamee
Administrator
From Littleton, CO
Sep 2, 2009
Artist Tears P3
Good post JLP! Rock solid analysis if you ask me.

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By scottydo
From ventura, ca
Sep 3, 2009
chalking up at a rest
to quote someone else on another site, 'A6+ means that the rock sodomizes you before you die...'

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By Larry
From SoAZ
Sep 3, 2009
I have no business talking about hard aid.

But it seems to me that, at the upper end, danger is integral to the rating.

The only way to make it harder is to make it more dangerous.

Get rid of the rope altogether, Mitrovich-style. Free solo style. The only piece between you and the ground is your last one.

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By Kevin Stricker
From Evergreen, CO
Sep 3, 2009
Problem is then even a A3 could be called A5.

Basically aid is dead people, let's quit pretending and move on. Once enough grumpies climb it most aid routes go free anyways. So let's project into the future what we want to see today and just start chiseling and top roping it now.

I'm guessing it is going to be A2 by the time Rickd and SamL get done with it anyways.

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By Jason Kaplan
From Glenwood ,Co
Sep 3, 2009
avitar pic
So if aid is dead does that mean everything is free climbable? Go send artist tears and confirm that for me(and I'm not refering to the bolt ladder stuff but the slightly overhanging awkward pods on a sheer face). There are still pleanty of lines that are un-freeable, and some will probably stay that way forever without serious changes in the nature of the routes (retro bolted, chipped, not sticking to the original line). I'd like to see someone try to free climb a RURP seam or a thin head seam on vertical stone and still say Aid is dead.

So we should all stop climbing lines that are aesthetic or otherwise enjoyable just because maybe 1 superhuman mutant can free climb it?
Your logic is flawed,IMHO.

Who cares about the grade, it is still cool to hear about what they did. It's no use speculating, just wait for someone to repeat it.

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By Darren Mabe
From Flagstaff, AZ
Sep 3, 2009
wham bam hand jam. Wrapping up the final moves of ...
maybe it would take a parachute-tactic similar to Potter's "freebasing" to push the grade into A6+ and higher. in other words, when the leader falls and rips the whole pitch including the belay and belayer, they both open their chutes. (thus proving that none of it would hold)

then, the aid rating would get higher, the closer they are to the ground when they open thier chutes.

we'll call it A-Basing.

no one has to die

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By Darren Mabe
From Flagstaff, AZ
Sep 3, 2009
wham bam hand jam. Wrapping up the final moves of ...
lets think about this 4th dimensionally.
everyone is so tied up in this A6+ idea.

perhaps we cant get their unless its C6, C6+, etc...

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By Phil Lauffen
From The Bubble
Sep 3, 2009
RMNP skiing. Photo by Nodin de Saillan
They should test whether a pitch really is A6 by dropping a full pig onto the belay and seeing if it holds...

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By Chris Plesko
From Westminster, CO
Sep 3, 2009
OMG, I winz!!!
Phil Lauffen wrote:
They should test whether a pitch really is A6 by dropping a full pig onto the belay and seeing if it holds...


and video tape it on an iPhone to post directly to uTube. Instant consensus!

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By bigwallrog
From the farside
Sep 3, 2009
Yea right on Jlp
I agree w the analysis so by there logic
if I do a full pitch of A-5 and than belay
of two equalized 0 copper heads I can call it
A-6 think I'll pass

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By Sam Lightner, Jr.
From Lander, WY
Sep 3, 2009
The Shield
Kevin Stricker wrote:
I'm guessing it is going to be A2 by the time Rickd and SamL get done with it anyways.


Kevin, whats that mean?

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By Buff Johnson
Sep 3, 2009
smiley face
If it is graded by how you fall and not climbed, can it be graded?

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By Shawn Mitchell
From Broomfield
Sep 3, 2009
Splitter Jams on the Israel/Palestine Security Wal...
Nice, Jared. Even better insight than your post of last night.

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By Sam Lightner, Jr.
From Lander, WY
Sep 3, 2009
The Shield
Don[t get me wrong, fella's. I think the aid scale is as silly as, well, aid. Its based on fear and length of fall and there really is no way to test that without taking said fall. As the SAG (super aid guy) said, "There is no A5 cus no one has ever died on an A5 pitch." It simply hasn't been proven to exist. Plus, what Jared said about how the placements change, as well as how technology has changed the game, is not considered.

However, the fact remains that the current scale, the "A" scale, is based on the length of fall and not on the technical difficult. We had a simliar thing up too the mid 80's with the "B" scale for bouldeirng, only it was based on how many tries for one particular climber. Verm came along and instead of opening said scale, he created his own with an open end. Maybe we should do that. What we should not do is call something A6+ when we already have the ultimate in A5... unless of course the route not only kills you, but hunts your family down later.

PS, as per the ripping the belay, i thought that was what Bridwell suggested with t he A5+ rating.

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By Darren Mabe
From Flagstaff, AZ
Sep 3, 2009
wham bam hand jam. Wrapping up the final moves of ...
Sam Lightner, Jr. wrote:
PS, as per the ripping the belay, i thought that was what Bridwell suggested with t he A5+ rating.

huh. didnt know that. what do i know, i am the slowest aid climber bc i want all my placements to be C1! OCD !
;)

EDIT: however middendorf says that for A6: bigwalls.net/climb/Ratings.htm...

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By Luis Cisneros
From Tucson
Sep 3, 2009
On Square Top Dome
According to the interview in Desnivel, with the "+" he is referring to a higher technical level, not lesser safety... so he is calling it an "A6+" because he thought it was TECHNICALLY harder to climb than the previous A6 he did (which actually is now called A4+/A5)... The problem is that, in principle, the 'A' grading considers only how bad a potential mess up will be, but some climbers find this insufficient, and feel that the technical difficulty should also be included. Alas, there is no upper limit to how hard a climb can be but there is a clear upper limit to how bad it can get if you fuck up: you die, end of the story...
This is an interesting point and is somewhat inverse to what happens in traditional free climbing, where usually only the technical difficulty is accounted for (except for the english 'E' grading). And yes, before someone ask 'how hard can it be to pull on gear?', I will have to say, is not the actual pulling on the gear. It can be really hard to do the placements, assuming good style of course... doing a really hard (technical) aid climb takes not only balls but lots of imagination, strategy, creativity, strength and mental and physical stamina... just like what you need to for a free on-sight. How do we decide something is 'harder'... ahhh, yes... there are no scientifically well defined objective references for sport climbing or bouldering neither, but they work just fine.

My question is, do we need to create a new rating system? or maybe to expand the existent one? or just talk about how dead you will be? can you be more dead than dead? say dead-dead? maybe dead and scared? dead and surprised? dead and tired?

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By host2
From malden,ma
Sep 3, 2009
diggin into some wide in harvard sq. cambridge , m...
i don't seem to get along here well , but i think the 6+ is pushing it a bit. seems like that would bracket back the other grades seeing that A5+ is potential ground fall material. i've never climbed hard aid routes, so i'll shut up now.

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By tom selleck
Sep 3, 2009
Shawn Mitchell wrote:
Nice, Jared. Even better insight than your post of last night.


That dude's name ain't Jared, or JLP for that matter

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By Shawn Mitchell
From Broomfield
Sep 3, 2009
Splitter Jams on the Israel/Palestine Security Wal...
Yeah, I think it's Jed actually, but I wasn't too worried about getting an anonymous avatar right. Anyway, I wanted to shout out a for a post he wasn't blowing snot on people!

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By tom selleck
Sep 3, 2009
Shawn Mitchell wrote:
Yeah, I think it's Jed actually, but I wasn't too worried about getting an anonymous avatar right. Anyway, I wanted to shout out a for a post he wasn't blowing snot on people!


he does do that

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By bigwallrog
From the farside
Sep 5, 2009
Nice JLP thanks for taking the time to explain it all so well , Your point was exactly what I knew all along ( in regards to number of sketchy placements ect )but was wondering if in the last 20 years id missed something somewhere between work n play?As I dont climb sandstone that much...

A-6 is a Euro grade of an A-5 pitch if you can find an A-5 pitch on
shi@@y sandstone

cool .....

It's all sooo clear now


Thanks Again .
Rog..

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By alpinglow
From city, state
Sep 6, 2009
this whole mess is a play on Beyer's own unique aid scale.

Not the old scale, not the new wave...his OWN.

Back when Beyer was the only one climbing his stuff he could call it A6, A5b, A4d. Whatever he wanted, noone was repeating his stuff, he could tell tall tales all day.

Homey, the hardman Euro is just playing off of the Beyer's scale. For a period of years I was pretty in touch with Beyer's grading. Kalous's aid rant (He did second ascent? of Death of American democracy and soloed second of World's End, both Beyer's, both in Fishers)is spot on. Everyone tells teh same story of contrived placements/difficulty, voodoo topos, and a heavy drill.

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By bigwallrog
From the farside
Sep 6, 2009
Ok thanks Brent

I understand it and that aid rant guy is f*##**n funny.........

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