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In defense of projects.
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By Darren Mabe
From Flagstaff, AZ
Feb 18, 2008
wham bam hand jam. Wrapping up the final moves of Twist of Fate, Oak Creek Canyon. <br /> <br />photo: Blake McCord

nice! youre the man.


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By BrianWinslow
From Concord, NH
Feb 18, 2008
Me after climbing the Whitney Gilman Ridge.

Kevin Stricker wrote:
Question is, at the end of the summer who is the better climber? If they both now decided to jump on another .13a, which climber do you think would be the first to succeed?



The proudest sends I have came when I knew that I could do it. Whether you reach that point by projecting a particular grade or biulding a solid base of lower grades, I think the end result needs to be mental as much or even more than physical.


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By Hank Caylor
Administrator
From Golden, CO
Feb 18, 2008
Lone goat..

Kevin Stricker wrote:
Question is, at the end of the summer who is the better climber? If they both now decided to jump on another .13a, which climber do you think would be the first to succeed?



I think the climber who mentally has the 13a breakthrough is going to succeed on the next 13a more quickly than the progressing climber. Just my opinion, but this train of thought can go straight down or up through the grades. Whenever breaking through to the next "number" grade, a big mental breakthrough is usually required, more so than getting to the next "letter" grade. Going from 12c to 12d is great, but breaking through from 12d to 13a can rattle some folks brain with barriers that can be hard to get around. Like I said, this can be the same for 10d to 11a or from 13d to 14a or whatever. I sorta also think lots of people tend to not want to get their 12a's 13a's and so on downgraded, so the routes can be more stout and defined than mid-letter graded routes(if that makes any sense).

Whatever the answer, one of the better questions I've heard on this forum Kevin.


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By Kevin Stricker
From Evergreen, CO
Feb 18, 2008

Hank,
I agree that the mental barriers are usually the toughest to break in climbing. I would tend to think though that if you climb a .13a in 40 tries, that most likely you are going to take around that many to get your next .13a because that is the paradym you have created for yourself. On the other hand if you just sent nine .12's and say your .12d took 10 tries you are going to go into it thinking that .13a is going to take you 20 you will most likely succeed in around 20 tries.

Anyways that is just my interpretation...I think the big downfall some people face when projecting is they back themselves into a corner and only work on a single route for months on end. I think the pitfall is that they tend to stagnate as climbers, their body stops adapting and it becomes a purely mental game after a certain point. Also if you tend to do the same warm up and fail on the same route over and over after a while it really effects your psyche, you expect to fail after a while.

Personally I like having projects more than I like completing them. Generally after sending something that has taken me a lot of effort I feel a bit empty, the send means less than the project did. But that is just me..I think that the most important thing in climbing is to always persue your passion...and if that means working routes then GO FOR IT! Just don't loose focus on the most important thing...Having fun.


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By Stich
From Colorado Springs, Colorado
Feb 18, 2008
Coffee after freezing our asses off near James Peak.

Sorry to hear about that, Ken. Damn.


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By Jay Knower
Administrator
From Campton, NH
Feb 18, 2008
Technosurfing, Rumney. Photo by Seth Hamel.

Betsy and Ken, our thoughts are with you.


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By KCP
From Eldorado Springs, CO
Feb 18, 2008

Thanks, folks. They are moving Betsy out of quarantine tomorrow morning, but they have to do another spinal tap to release some of the pressure from her brain. The cultures should be ready by morning and then we'll know if it's bacterial or viral meningitis. Hopefully it's only viral, although they are treating it as the former, to be on the safe side. She is in a lot of pain, although her fever has subsided and she is stable.

It has been a scary two days.


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By YDPL8S
From Santa Monica, Ca.
Feb 19, 2008
Korea 1 1975

Wow Ken, puts things in perspective. We are all sending our most positive thoughts to you and yours.


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By Dane Casterson
From Boulder
Feb 19, 2008
More fun inside the Crackhouse.  Attempting to turn the corner.  Doesnt get much better!

Ken, please give Betsy a big hug for me. I know her from Seven and see her often. Tell her that Dane from Tahona wishes her the best.


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By KCP
From Eldorado Springs, CO
Feb 19, 2008

Thank you, Scott and Dane. I'm headed over to the hospital in a few minutes. I'll make sure that I tell her.


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By Monomaniac
Administrator
From Morrison, CO
Feb 19, 2008
Insurrection, 5.14c.  Photo Adam Sanders.

Best wishes, Ken & Betsy.


John,

If it takes you a million tries to send a 13c or d, and you only try it once a week, it will take 19,230 years to send. So I would suggest a 13a.

Seriously though, I would go up one letter grade at a time (so pick a 13a for your 1st proj). The experience you gain along the way will be valuable, and I think you will enjoy it a lot more. If you pick a route that's too easy, the worst thing that can happen is that you send it really fast.


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By Jay Knower
Administrator
From Campton, NH
Feb 19, 2008
Technosurfing, Rumney. Photo by Seth Hamel.

Monomaniac wrote:
If you pick a route that's too easy, the worst thing that can happen is that you send it really fast.


That's just so fulfilling to hear. The point is not to send (initially) the point is to work. I guess it's like that touchy-feely cliche: it's not about the destination, it's about the journey. I would take it a step farther from the cliche and say that it's about trying hard for trying hard's sake.

John, 13a sounds super doable for you. I think though that you should project whichever route you find more inspiring, no matter what the grade. If you are connected to the route on an aesthetic level, then I think the grade is irrelevant.

Best of luck Ken. You've got a lot of people who care around here.


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By Ty Gregory
From Salt Lake City
Sep 3, 2008

gi joe
gi joe


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By Darren Mabe
From Flagstaff, AZ
Sep 3, 2008
wham bam hand jam. Wrapping up the final moves of Twist of Fate, Oak Creek Canyon. <br /> <br />photo: Blake McCord

i try not to count the number of "tries". what does that really mean anyway? i dont think its a good gage.

for example, "6" tries on something over a period of 2 years is a little different than 6 tries over two consecutive days.

if i were to count "tries" i would only count the ones where i actually did.


EDIT: John, go send my new Wiled Horses route and let me know what you think of it. might not be much of a project for you, but I am trying to get a rating consensus.


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By Paul Hunnicutt
From Boulder, CO
Sep 3, 2008
Half Dome

Amazing that someone found a way to quote Ayn Rand on MP. Just don't blow up your project when you're finished ok.


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By Luke to Zuke
From Anchorage
Sep 3, 2008
Middle Troll

this is the senseless forum.. if you want to make sence...dont come here.


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By Jay Knower
Administrator
From Campton, NH
Sep 3, 2008
Technosurfing, Rumney. Photo by Seth Hamel.

lucaskrajnik wrote:
this is the senseless forum.. if you want to make sence...dont come here.


Lucas, What about this thread doesn't make sense? It makes sense to me.


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By Darren Mabe
From Flagstaff, AZ
Sep 3, 2008
wham bam hand jam. Wrapping up the final moves of Twist of Fate, Oak Creek Canyon. <br /> <br />photo: Blake McCord

John Langston wrote:
Only if you go send "Crumbling Reality", I'm also looking for a consensus.

i am trying to learn some of that harder o-dubb stuff. tried desiderata in the voo last weekend. have never done inverted ow before. maybe i will go check out CR eventually. there is a reason i dont own cams bigger than 3.5, except for a few big bros which i like.

EDIT: yikes! checked out your route description again. thanks for the offer, but i will pass for now.. ask me again in 15 years or so ;) nicely done, john.

John Langston wrote:
I got on the Naked Kill the other day. Got all the moves clean on TR. With the position of where the first piece of pro is (above the crux), I'm thinking of headpointing the shit out of it and just freesoloing it. Might save me some effort.

awesome. i worked it ground up with spotters initially, there is a couple RPs at the start, and your first good piece is a yellow TCU (i fall tested it several times, thanks again peterman), after the first move. after that the gear is bomber. still have a good belay, because you can still deck at the first two pieces. i can give you more good gear beta if you want.


John Langston wrote:
I was thinking of projecting Stuffed Wolf

me too! :)


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By Darren Mabe
From Flagstaff, AZ
Sep 3, 2008
wham bam hand jam. Wrapping up the final moves of Twist of Fate, Oak Creek Canyon. <br /> <br />photo: Blake McCord

John Langston wrote:
position of where the first piece of pro is (above the crux), I'm thinking of headpointing the shit out of it and just freesoloing it.


we may have different views of the "crux", indeed low percentage insecure moves off the ground, but i personally think the crux is midway, establishing into the scoop.


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By Luke to Zuke
From Anchorage
Sep 3, 2008
Middle Troll

Jay Knower wrote:
Lucas, What about this thread doesn't make sense? It makes sense to me.


Jay Knower wrote:
I don't understand...



Bob D'Antonio wrote:
Adam wrote:I project plenty. I've done it enough to know that it takes less mental control, less fitness and less strength than doing a route on-sight or in a couple tries. That doesn't make much sense to me?


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By Paul Hunnicutt
From Boulder, CO
Sep 3, 2008
Half Dome

"Question is, at the end of the summer who is the better climber? If they both now decided to jump on another .13a, which climber do you think would be the first to succeed?"

This is highly debatable I think.

It probably could go either way. The point is you probably need to find a way to climb/train that works for you. If you hate projecting you might not have much success with that method. However, if you always give up quickly maybe you aren't pushing hard enough and need a proj. I don't think there is a black and white answer to that question.

Maybe sometimes in your climbing "career" you need to try each strategy.


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By Luke to Zuke
From Anchorage
Sep 3, 2008
Middle Troll

Paul Hunnicutt wrote:
"Question is, at the end of the summer who is the better climber? If they both now decided to jump on another .13a, which climber do you think would be the first to succeed?" This is highly debatable I think. It probably could go either way. The point is you probably need to find a way to climb/train that works for you. If you hate projecting you might not have much success with that method. However, if you always give up quickly maybe you aren't pushing hard enough and need a proj. I don't think there is a black and white answer to that question. Maybe sometimes in your climbing "career" you need to try each strategy.


...the questions is...can they project the new 13a


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By Darren Mabe
From Flagstaff, AZ
Sep 3, 2008
wham bam hand jam. Wrapping up the final moves of Twist of Fate, Oak Creek Canyon. <br /> <br />photo: Blake McCord

John Langston wrote:
I see what looks to be a bomber #4 or 5 RP placement at the start. That with only a biner not a draw and a very attentive belay "should" keep you off the ground if you fall off the initial moves. I saw the yellow tcu/alien placement, I was only doing it on TR but felt like I'd rather be on the next set of holds/jams before filling it. If this finger feels better, I'll try it again on friday. Stuffed Wolf is good, it's got about a 5' that while aren't totally baffling are super low percentage and a little mysterious. So much more fun than working a route that is just a bunch of dyno's or steep jugs though. One of the better sport routes in the area imo.


you got it. i resorted to doing the start a little different, to be able to place that yellow high, and thus plugging up a finger lock, but was worth the safety, though harder. i fell on those rp placements (stack/equalize two of them) to test them on purpose and they held FWIW. but after i wired the start, i skipped those placements.

gonna try SW today i think. never been on it, and i have heard so much about it!

why havent we swapped belays yet, john? we should change that.
:)


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By Jay Knower
Administrator
From Campton, NH
Sep 3, 2008
Technosurfing, Rumney. Photo by Seth Hamel.

Lucas, you did a good job of catching me in a contradiction (I'm sure it won't be the last time I contradict myself), but you have yet to answer my question: What about this thread doesn't make sense?


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By Darren Mabe
From Flagstaff, AZ
Sep 3, 2008
wham bam hand jam. Wrapping up the final moves of Twist of Fate, Oak Creek Canyon. <br /> <br />photo: Blake McCord

John Langston wrote:
You interested in the Bishop finger crack or brothers in arms? Lord knows I am.


yes and yes.


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