Improving/maintaining climbing funciton while training for half marathon

So i signed up for a half marathon, it's the Horsetooth Half in late April. Come mid February i'll start to really train, putting in 3-4 days of running/week, totaling 15-25 miles/week. My goal is to beat 1:45 for the overall time.

My concern is that my climbing will suffer. I currently climb 2-4 days/week, onsight or send within 3/4 tries 12a-b (gym and outdoors), i'd like to push that up toward 12c this season.

I've been looking at some of the more involved climbing training schedules out there and don't believe i'll have the time/energy to do what's required for periodized training until after the Half is over, meaning i could peak in June/July, which is okay, but also don't want to regress in my climbing.

My questions revolve around, how to stay strong, and make the most of my climbing when i'll most likely be tired from long runs? I'm thinking more bouldering/hangboarding and then laps on routes below my redpoint when i'm on a rope. This stems from the fact that my limiting factor is typically hand strength and technique/power, not endurance (and endurance/ability to recover should improve as cardio improves with running).

Any insights? Anyone else managing running training along with climbing training? Tips, suggestions etc.. are all appreciated.

I'm hardly a running expert, but 25 mi/wk doesn't seem like enough.

It also seems like 25 mi/wk isn't so much that it will preclude you from climbing. That should be not much more than 5 hrs per week of running...that leaves plenty of time to climb.

Climb and run every other day, do both on the weekends. Boom!

Are you much of a runner to begin with? If you have a background in running, you should be able to train for a half without much real effort. If you're starting from scratch, you need to put more effort into it.

Climbing strength training should not be done more than every other day, sometimes only once every three days, so you should have lots of days available to run. Overall fatigue can be a factor, which goes back to your running history. Expect to gain weight, so expect your climbnig to suffer accordingly.

Running & climbing can mix quite well if you aren't excessively ambitious about either, but don't expect to do either at your limit if you insist on doing both.

Mike Anderson wrote:I'm hardly a running expert, but 25 mi/wk doesn't seem like enough.

Hm. I am curious about this as well. I am more of a runner than a climber...I've never heard of a half training scheme involving such little mileage. I guess there are those plans where the longest run you ever do is on race day. That seems fine if your goal is just to finish, but..for breaking 1:45? Out of curiosity, what is your long run? I ran a half last spring and I was doing 50-70 mile weeks, typically with one day off/week, and three days over 10 miles.

The training plan I was using was derived from a variety of sources, primarily an article from runners world. I thought it was a pretty well-conceived plan that I tweaked a bit. It looks like they're asking for your email now to get a hold of it for free:
runnersworld.com/cas/email/…

There were several schematics available, for runners of various experience levels...I guess for all I know the beginner plan suggests 25mi/week...but I'm still skeptical.

Last two half's i ran I finished between 1:55 and 2:00. I haven't looked again at a training chart and mapped my plan, but my first post was based on 3 runs/week, which is what i remember doing last time, 1 long run, (starting at 7 miles, adding one mile every week until i do 13 two weeks prior to the event). One medium run, (appx 6-10 miles), and then one recover run of 3-4 miles, so the longest week would be 13+10+4 tops.

Maybe i need to look at some training plans again, but 50-60 miles/week for a 13 mile race seems excessive, I also find cardio endurance comes somewhat naturally.

So i could probably do my 3-4 mile run on a climbing day as well. Plus one absolute rest-day... two days of purely running, and then two of (probably tired, climbing). this is where I get concerned, don't want to regress in climbing.

Also: I was expecting to lose weight, hopefully drop down to send-weight of around 145. Mono, why do you anticipate gain? Leg muscle?

It sounds like you have a pretty solid running base to draw on so I don't expect your running to impact your climbing training much. As with any increase in calorie output, you will feel more hungry as you increase running milage. If you can keep your calories in check you can shed weight and end up climbing stronger. Running will not increase your leg mass because it is a bodyweight exercise.
I can't speak to your running program, I haven't tried to do a half for speed.
Your running will not increase your climbing fitness because you are training your legs, not your forearms.
I can do a 3-4 mile run on training days without any effect. Once I push into 8+ miles I can't climb well on the same day. I alternate climbing and running days and it seems to allow recovery of both.

I run and climb at about the same pace and level as you (germsauce) do. I find that they compliment each other pretty well. Here is what I do when I try to do a half marathon for time (my fastest is 1:52 for the Blue Sky half=trail run. I don't run on the road much). I also do not want my climbing to suffer.

I climb 4 days a week and run 3-5. My weekly total never exceeds 40 miles, and hardly ever exceeds 20. I generally climb Tuesday, Wednesday, Saturday and Sunday. On Monday I try to do a longer run of 6-10 miles, but will cut it short if I don't feel good. I also try to run this one as fast as I can for that distance. On Tuesday I will generally do around 4 miles at a good clip, and Fridays I run slow and aim for 10 miles. I also try to get one run in on Saturday or Sunday, and the distance depends on my climbing day. I listen to what my body is telling me and will cut any run short.

I don't really taper since my running is not designed for me to peak at a certain time, but I do take most of the week before the event off. I am sure to up my carbohydrate intake a few days before the event, but don't do a true carb load. I have to run the day before the event; usually a fast 4.

I think your training could work, but it does depend on your running base. I don't know where you live, but I am in Fort Collins. If you like to run trails, send me a pm and we might be able to work out some time to run together.

Good luck, and have fun.

Elijah, I'm in Boulder, lemme know if you ever cruise down this way, good to have running partners.

Going to try to do Eldo to Boulder once a week too if anyone is interested (snow permitting), Bastille to my house is about 10 mi.

any tips on managing a 40+ hour work week/social life on top of all this? coffee? cocaine? Blood Doping?

Many people believe that you just put in more miles and then get faster. I've never wanted to take the time away from climbing to attempt this approach.

I would suggest doing some reading about running workouts if you are serious about getting faster. Interval training, tempo and GP runs, etc

With three targeted workouts a week (not just runs) I think you can make that goal given enough lead time. You don't need to do more than 25 miles a week if you train smart.

I tend to lose weight running. The biggest hit to my climbing performance is when you are doing races/runs long enough to deplete your glycogen stores.

Post long runs (10-20 miles) I would tend to get pumped much faster due to "red-lining" earlier in the climb. I've also had problems when my core would be tired out from trail running. This also negatively impacted my climbing performance.

- Luke

While doing my run, slowly, today, I remembered something else. Bouldering the day before a run makes the run more difficult. This is due to the impact of dropping off the boulder problems, so I try to get on ropes the day before a running workout.

Nutrition is also very important, and be sure to eat some carbs right after a run, and during the long runs.

germsauce wrote: Mono, why do you anticipate gain? Leg muscle?

I think this depends on genetics and your propensity for putting on muscle. Mono and I (we're brothers) should have been body builders or professional wrestlers because if we stand up too quickly our legs get shredded. It's not too helpful for rock climbing.

From my years of voyeurism, I would say most runners don't have this problem.

I'm training for the Colorado Marathon in May. I ran my first half marathon last November. Before that I ran here and there around 3-5 miles, but never anything structured until last year when I decided to do a half marathon because my wife started looking smoking hot from getting in shape doing her own 5K's.

In 4 weeks I lost 12 lbs (how the F are you people gaining weight?!?) and my bouldering grade jumped up two digits consistently. Two reasons why i lost the weight: 1) Running obviously 2) I run the Boulder Creek trail during lunch and it kept me away from that giant candy bowl in my office because I no longer needed a 3:30 fix to get through work. You can do a 1:45 half with some speed training pretty easily. That's just 8 min/mile which is pretty avg. This pace will not get you a Boston Qualifier. I ran that myself, and got passed by a 70+ man and another dude weighing around 250lb. For your half-marathon you only need to build up to 12 miles 1 week before race day. Hal Higdons half marathon: intermediate program which includes speed drills during the week and long runs on Sunday is perfect for this type of goal. This time of year is perfect for running because the temps are awesome and most of us are just doing day trips because we're trying to ski at least one day on the weekend.

For a 1:45 just do speed intervals and other forms of speed work during the week and don't ever, EVER miss your long runs on the weekend and you'll not only finish, and hopefully reach your 1:45 goal.

Now if you are training for a hilly trail half marathon I've got nothing for you. My info is based on a road race.

I'm both a fairly serious runner and climber. I climb about 3x week, mid to hard 12s, and run about 12-14 races (5k-marathon) each year (I average 50-60 miles per week). I'm currently training for Boston (13 weeks out) and still climbing 12s. I've run the Horsetooth Half, and I can say without any hesitation that this is not an easy course - though it is a fantastic race. Are you aiming for a PR? If so, this is not the race for that. But if you really want that, you will need to be running quite a bit more then you're currently at (my PR for a half is 129.34). Now to the real question: balancing running and climbing - it's not easy. At the height on marathon training I'm really not able to give it my all in climbing - neither physically nor psychologically. When you are doing serious running training it takes something out of you - something you need when you're trying hard climbing. that said, I try to continue to balance both, though running is currently my priority (I go back and forth on this). I try to climb on my easy running days and try not to climb too hard the day before a hard running day. I believe that for the most part running and climbing work well together until you really start pushing it with one or both. You really need to make some choices because you will probably not be able to do your best at both at the same time. And...what's the rush?

If you're really going to try to keep the mileage that low while aiming for 1:45, you might check out this book:

Run Less, Run Faster

It's Furman University's FIRST training program. I've seen several folks, including my wife, PR with this.

Basically, you do three runs per week: a day of intervals, a fast tempo run at mid distance, and one long run. The book gives you paces for everything based on your current speed. On top of that, they expect you to crosstrain (climb?) 2-3 days per week. About 25 miles will be biggest total week on this program. For more info, Google "first running program".

runnersworld.com/article/0,…

Been there, done that, though not too impressive. I combined a fall season of multi-pitch with the Las Vegas 1/2 marathon on Dec 4th. I was surprised at how little training allowed me to run a 1:41. Because of visiting climbers and other obligations, I got in more hiking and climbing than running. I usually climbed outside or in the gym at least 3 times a week and got some sort of workout almost every day. I had a good base of hiking and a summer of hard climbing training for the 24 hours of Horseshoe Hell but really didn't get nearly enough running training. My longest was only 6.5 which I only did twice in the last 2 months. Bottom line was, I was leading mid 10's sport, low 10's trad, weighed in around the low 170s and am 62 years old. 20 years earlier I had run a 1:29 1/2 marathon but was not climbing at all at the time. My runs were on a loop that had a pretty stiff 3/4 mile hill and I concentrated on being relaxed and only pushed one workout pretty hard (a sub 7 min/mile 3.8 mile in Nov). At my age I found that my cardio was never an issue, it was my legs. My last month of running is summed up below but it was suplemented with a couple of runs up Camelback Mountain in Phoenix, big hikes to Bridge Mountain and Unimpeachable Groping, and an occasional session on the elliptical:
Time Dist MaxHR AvHR Pace/mile
11/30/2011 51:26:00 6.54 140 129 7:51
11/28/2011 38:07:00 5.17 145 136 7:22
11/26/2011 28:53:00 3.8 142 132 7:38
11/24/2011 28:09:00 3.8 146 139 7:26
11/20/2011 38:35:00 5.17 146 138 7:27
11/16/2011 39:21:00 5.17 148 138 7:36
11/15/2011 28:18:00 3.8 142 7:29
11/6/2011 28:43:00 3.8 140 131 7:35
11/3/2011 39:06:00 5.17 142 ~135 7:33
11/1/2011 28:18:00 3.8 144 133 7:29

JLP wrote: Running a 1:40 on the above training plan sounds great - but it's because you could run 1:29 in the past that made it work. I've seen countless examples of people who ran fast in high school or whatever getting it all back and more pretty fast. Getting there the first time, especially as you get older, is WAY harder. To get there from 1:55 would require a MUCH higher volume of training.

I agree with this. I ran alot in HS and college, and every once in a while, I get a hankering to run fast and it only takes about 3-4 weeks of 3 days/week to get pretty fast. I'll usually do some kind of speed work 1-2 times per week, and that seems to do it.

I'd also highly recommend Brad Hudson's Run Faster: From the 5k to the Marathon.

JLP wrote:Combining running and climbing is pretty easy, up to the limits of what your body can handle overall. Strength first, then endurance - ie, climb first, then run. Make sure you take in the additional required nutrition and sleep.....However, the marathon times quoted in that book are pretty pedestrian. Nobody running sub 2:45 marathons is running 3 days a week + some cross training. The take-away is that as you gain experience and fitness, you'll find the increased volume necessary to improve will seem disproportionate to your net increases in speed. ie - it's great to be a beginner....To get there from 1:55 would require a MUCH higher volume of training.

YES. Climb first, then run. And taking care of yourself--this past fall I tried to maintain 50 mi/week running, while focusing more of my time on climbing, and grad school. What I got, because I didn't eat and recover enough (stress), was a severe case of anemia. It was bad enough that I developed a slight heart murmur and was having issues fainting. Now I have decided to tone back the running for this semester as I try to make a concerted effort to get into 5.12 for the first time and finish my thesis. not really related but take heed, sometimes too much is in fact too much.

Yah.
When I mentioned earlier doing 50-70/week for a half, that was with a goal time of 1:20, with 1:30 being moderate pace, and a background of running competitively.

I don't think you should expect to gain weight.

Most endurance training creates smaller muscle fiber diameter, not larger. There are exceptions of course. I once trained a marathon runner who could run a six minute mile for almost 20 miles straight but his legs were pretty ripped. But I wouldn't say this is typical.