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By mattnorville
Sep 2, 2009
Ship's Prow.

Hey MPers

After I get to the top of a sport climb and I am going to set up a TR this is how I do it. 1) take a sling that is girth hitched to my harness and clip it to one of the anchor bolts. 2) Set up a sliding X using three biners (1 locking for the power point and two non locking for the bolts). 3) Clip into this with the rope and get lowered down.

When it is time to clean the route I clip an anchor bolt directly like stated above. Tear down my set up, fed the rope through the bottom chains and either rap or get lowered down.

Does anyone do it a different way and/or have suggestions to make my way better?

-Matt


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By Robert 560
From The Land of the Lost
Sep 2, 2009
Secret Crag

When I set up a top rope anchor on a sport route I always use two lengths of one inch climb spec webbing(Thanks Russ at Fish Products) sewn into a loop with 4 locking biners. I clip one into one anchor and one into the rope for each anchor. I have my biners color coded so I always clip the same ones to the anchors and the others to the rope. I like the BIG 1" webbing because it "looks" strong. Maybe it's just because I grew up using it.


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By Paul Hunnicutt
From Boulder, CO
Sep 2, 2009
Half Dome

I always clip in twice...one loose just to make sure I'm officially on rap or ready to be lowered.

I use two long runners with 4 biners. The runners are nice because they can be used just like quickdraws or extended to clear a lip or edge (though not a sharp one). Or more frequently I can be lazy/lame/smart? and "cheat" by making the clip the anchor clip easier. One on each bolt and two on the rope...one of which is a locker (if not opposite and opposed). I'd always go with two biners on the rope personally. Keep the biners you clip into the bolts always on bolts. The theory is that small knicks in the metal could cut a rope.

Communicate with your belayer BEFORE and DURING the lowering setup. Many accidents have occured due to miscommunication. If lowering make sure your belayer has you before you unclip. Don't have your belayer take you off...just ask for slack to thread the anchor.

You'll get a mouthful if you ask on this site about the sliding X versus just using two draws or runners.

If you have to clean a route it is nice to be able to back up your rappel...learn this. I do it all the time now regardless, because it only takes an extra 15 sec. to set up.


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By Mike
From Phoenix
Sep 2, 2009
Doing the jump-across off The Mace.  I never get tired of this climb.  Photo by Wednesday Hugus.

When arriving at the anchor, clip a draw to one anchor and clip it to the rope. Then clip another draw to the other anchor & clip it to the rope, with the gate facing the opposite direction. Lower off.


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By Old and Busted
From Centennial, CO
Sep 2, 2009
Stabby

Back up a little. The FIRST thing you are supposed to do at the top of a sport route is spray spray spray. This shows everyone you have mad skills because you are so awesome that you can rig everything up for a tr/lower and jabber on about whatever at the same time. People that just quietly work away up there are either still a little scared or flamed out because they just got worked.

Rigging: first of all, remember that the 2nd anchor is a purely redundant feature. This is a carry-over attribute from trad anchors that we all just incorporated as a proper safety feature; plus the resulting 2 X's on topos look cool. Each bolt (if the rock is good) is good for @ 1600 lbs. per the bolt specs, which really means more like 2000 if you understand how manufacturers understate tolerances.

I've seen people spend 5-8 minutes up there spinning locking biners upside down, equalizing slings, etc; and thats all good since it lends itself to proper techniques in trad. But in actuality unnecessary with sport anchors. Take up 2 runners, each should have at least one locker on it. I like having nothing but lockers on mine. Clip one to each anchor and the rope, and leave them separate. Simple. I hate it when people loop them together and just use one locker for the rope; you have just mitigated the redundancy factor by incorporating a single point into the system. That would be my critique of your system.

There is a lot of over thinking going here. And in my personal opinion, the girth-hitch sling to harness thing just looks dorky.


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By Kevin Stricker
From Evergreen, CO
Sep 2, 2009

More important than redundancy is the fact that the central locker in the OP's setup is being loaded in a way it was not designed for. It is called tri-axial loading and cuts the strength of the biner in half.

Like Mike said, just use two quickdraws, you have redundancy and each one is loaded properly. Making sure the gates are facing outwards on the lower biners is important to keep them from opening each other but honestly not critical. If you are belaying up your girlfriend maybe use a granny draw(qd with two lockers).

The best way to be safe and make sure you are going to be lowered properly(i.e. not dropped) is to grab the other side of the rope from where it exits the anchors and make sure you feel your belayer has you before letting go. You can easily hold your weight with one hand because of friction and mechanical advantage.


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By Coz Teplitz
From Watertown, MA
Sep 2, 2009
Me before a cold Nov day at the Gunks, 2007.

Mike Lane wrote:
Back up a little. The FIRST thing you are supposed to do at the top of a sport route is spray spray spray. This shows everyone you have mad skills because you are so awesome that you can rig everything up for a tr/lower and jabber on about whatever at the same time. People that just quietly work away up there are either still a little scared or flamed out because they just got worked.


LOL

Except I sometimes "jabber on" because I am both scared and flamed out...


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By Scott McMahon
From Boulder, CO
Sep 2, 2009
Bocan

Well it depends on the anchor, but if it's just a straight forward, even 2 bolt anchor I just use 2 locker quickdraws. I just took 2 dogbones and outfitted them with some of the smaller Trango classic screwlock carabiners.

Anything else depends on if the bolts are uneven, set back etc.


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By John Farrell
From Phoenix, AZ
Sep 2, 2009
Chilling on Moby Dick, Cochise Stronghold.

Mike wrote:
When arriving at the anchor, clip a draw to one anchor and clip it to the rope. Then clip another draw to the other anchor & clip it to the rope, with the gate facing the opposite direction. Lower off.


That's all I do... I just use two draws, one on each anchor, and have the gates facing opposite. That's your "sliding x" right there. Plus, if you pull the rope for someone to lead, they don't have to fuss with locked lockers when they hit the anchors.


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By Wade Frank
From Littleton, CO
Sep 3, 2009
Rhys at Lake McConaughy.

mattnorville wrote:
When it is time to clean the route I clip an anchor bolt directly like stated above. Tear down my set up, fed the rope through the bottom chains and either rap or get lowered down. Does anyone do it a different way and/or have suggestions to make my way better? -Matt


When at your anchor clip into your power point directly with your webbing, PAS, or Daisy, then untie, feed the rope, setup your rappel with a back up, take out the slack and make sure your backup (probably a prussic) is secure, clean and rappel.

If your in your anchor you are redundant, if you clip one bolt you are not.

Always try to rappel off the bolts as lowering off of them causes unnecessary wear.


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By Dan G0D5H411
From Colorado Springs, CO
Sep 3, 2009
Dan on Hurricane

Even though the point has been made that an individual bolt is very strong, you should definitely still clip the other bolt. I have seen sandstone anchors where one bolt can practically be pulled out and I have seen 30 year old, home-made anchors down at Shelf where I would not dare to go off one bolt. Keep it consistent and clip both, it only takes 5 more seconds.


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By Aaron Martinuzzi
Sep 3, 2009
end of the day in the black canyon.

Paul Hunnicutt wrote:
You'll get a mouthful if you ask on this site about the sliding X versus just using two draws or runners.


If you're using a sliding X and one of the bolts blows, the resulting force is shock-loaded onto the remaining anchor point, which isn't good. trad climbing, I orient my sliding X as it needs to be and then throw an overhand into the system to prevent shock-loading in the event of some gear failure.

sport climbing, as others have mentioned, i just use two quickdraws at the anchor to lower off of or set a toprope, and only clip directly into the anchors if i'm cleaning the gear.

Edit: just scoped out your profile - i've head a a clean TR ascent referred to as a "brownpoint." pretty awesome, huh?


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By Britton
Sep 3, 2009

According to the John Long anchor book, shock loading doesnt exist. There is no mulitplication of forces and if I recall correctly the same force applied to the piece that blows is applied to the other piece or pieces.


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By Evan1984
Sep 3, 2009

"Each bolt (if the rock is good) is good for @ 1600 lbs. per the bolt specs, which really means more like 2000 if you understand how manufacturers understate tolerances."

This is also assuming the bolt is good. Although I understand and agree with the point that a good single bolt in good rock is very sufficient to hold the load, applying this to the world of differing rock/bolt quality is complacent and unnecesarily less safe.

IMHO, the most important part of a bolted anchor is redundancy:2 bolts, 2 masterpoint biners, 2 slings(either 2 draws or doubled up on the sliding x. How you acheive this is secondary. My preference is 2 draws rigged with lockers.

The redundancy portion carries over to me double clipping myself while cleaning, also.

Just my 2 cents.

Evan


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By mattnorville
Sep 3, 2009
Ship's Prow.

Aaron Martinuzzi wrote:
i've head a a clean TR ascent referred to as a "brownpoint." pretty awesome, huh?


That's pretty good


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By Aaron Martinuzzi
Sep 3, 2009
end of the day in the black canyon.

Britton wrote:
According to the John Long anchor book, shock loading doesn't exist. There is no mulitplication of forces and if I recall correctly the same force applied to the piece that blows is applied to the other piece or pieces.


i guess when i mention shock loading, i'm talking about re-weighting a piece dynamically vs. statically.

here's my understanding - in an equalized anchor, each piece (let's say there are two, to be simple) is holding a fraction of the load. when one of the pieces in the anchor fails, the remaining piece has to now hold 100% of that load, correct? if that load is allowed to accelerate before it fully weights the remaining piece, even just 18 or 24 inches (half the length of the runner used to equalize) the initial force on the remaining piece is increased by acceleration due to gravity, isn't it? after the load accelerates (the climber at the end of the rope drops 18 inches or whatever), the remaining bolt catches that force statically. having an overhand in the sliding X would prevent the load from accelerating because the length of runner attached to a given piece doesn't change.

correct me if i'm wrong, i'm interested.


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By Mike
From Phoenix
Sep 3, 2009
Doing the jump-across off The Mace.  I never get tired of this climb.  Photo by Wednesday Hugus.

Aaron Martinuzzi wrote:
i've head a a clean TR ascent referred to as a "brownpoint." pretty awesome, huh?



If you get it clean on the first try with no info, you can claim the coveted tronsight.


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By Shawn Mitchell
From Broomfield
Sep 3, 2009
Splitter Jams on the Israel/Palestine Security Wall.

Mike Lane wrote:
Back up a little. The FIRST thing you are supposed to do at the top of a sport route is spray spray spray. This shows everyone you have mad skills because you are so awesome that you can rig everything up for a tr/lower and jabber on about whatever at the same time. People that just quietly work away up there are either still a little scared or flamed out because they just got worked.


Nice. Very funny. But paragraph 2 of your post here: www.mountainproject.com/v/general_climbing/quote_an_old_code>>>
was funnier.


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By Joe Huggins
From 666 Rue le Jour-Edge City
Sep 4, 2009
mmmm....tree

Jump!


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By Greg D
From Here
Sep 4, 2009
Out of the blue.  Photo by Mike W. <br />

Aaron Martinuzzi wrote:
i've head a a clean TR ascent referred to as a "brownpoint." pretty awesome, huh?


Thread drift. Actually, the brownpoint was coined by Rob Williams 4 years ago. I mentioned Dean Potters "redpoint" ascent of some route after multiple top ropes and rappel inspections. He said that sounds more like a brownpoint...soiled or stained if you will. Hence, the brownpoint is a lead ascent after you have soiled it somehow. I'm glad the term is catching on all though its meaning seems to vary.


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By Devin C.
Sep 24, 2009

Aaron Martinuzzi wrote:
the initial force on the remaining piece is increased by acceleration due to gravity, isn't it? after the load accelerates (the climber at the end of the rope drops 18 inches or whatever), the remaining bolt catches that force statically.


This would only be a static catch if the climber was anchored in using static webbing/material. Since the climber is actually held by the dynamic rope it would be a dynamic catch with an equivalent force of an 18 inch lead fall (9" above a bolt). This is actually the exact scenario we put our selves in every fall we take. The static draw/runner/sling attaches the dynamic rope to a bolt or gear placemen. the only element that prevents the "shock load" is the rope, the runner or draw is generally very static material.


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By broppler
From Oakland
Sep 24, 2009
dinner ledge

Britton wrote:
According to the John Long anchor book, shock loading doesnt exist. There is no mulitplication of forces and if I recall correctly the same force applied to the piece that blows is applied to the other piece or pieces.


What?!! I thought that was the whole argument behind developing the equalette.


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By Peter Franzen
Administrator
From Phoenix, AZ
Sep 24, 2009
Belay

Don't worry about those pesky anchors. Just take the whipper:

The ceremonial victory whipper.  Possibly not the best thing to do repeatedly for the bolt's sake,  but I hear it's a bit of a tradition once you get your redpoint.
The ceremonial victory whipper. Possibly not the best thing to do repeatedly for the bolt's sake, but I hear it's a bit of a tradition once you get your redpoint.


I can't wait for this thread to devolve into yet another redundancy argument that features a 1/2" rap bolt failure as some sort of common occurrence.


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By Greg D
From Here
Sep 24, 2009
Out of the blue.  Photo by Mike W. <br />

Britton wrote:
According to the John Long anchor book, shock loading doesnt exist. There is no mulitplication of forces and if I recall correctly the same force applied to the piece that blows is applied to the other piece or pieces.

brooks8970 wrote:
What?!! I thought that was the whole argument behind developing the equalette.


One of the motivating factors behind the development of the equalette was that cordelettes distribute loads poorly, especially if there are different lengths of the arms or if the direction of the anticipated load changes even only slightly. One of the benefits of the equalette is load distribution even with changes in direction of loading. One of the concerns with the equalette was that if one side of the anchor blows, there is some slack and potential shock loading. After testing, this "shock loading" turned out to be much less than people believed as with sliding x configurations.


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By Boodge Nomchompski
Sep 24, 2009
Ancient wall art

Way too much over-thought going on here. Just solo and down-climb. Your on-sight limit goes up when the consequences are more dire.


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By Aaron Martinuzzi
Sep 24, 2009
end of the day in the black canyon.

Devin C. wrote:
This would only be a static catch if the climber was anchored in using static webbing/material. Since the climber is actually held by the dynamic rope it would be a dynamic catch with an equivalent force of an 18 inch lead fall (9" above a bolt). This is actually the exact scenario we put our selves in every fall we take. The static draw/runner/sling attaches the dynamic rope to a bolt or gear placemen. the only element that prevents the "shock load" is the rope, the runner or draw is generally very static material.



right, i realize the rope is dynamic, but i'm working with the scenario that you've got a static sling "slinding-x'ed" through two bolts, and one of the bolts fails. the sliding-x is going to lengthen and weight only the remaining bolt - that's the "shock load," in my understanding


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