Ice tools

I'm very new to vertical ice climbing, and was curious about the difference in ice tools, mostly why/when would one want to use say BD Cobras vs BD Fusions?
Just using BD as an example, more interested in tool designs, why adze or hammer/pick like cobras vs just pick like fusions?

Up front, this is an easy question, so I'm sure you'll get a ton of answers.

If you're just starting out and only intend to climb ice, you'll go with something like a BD Cobra (or Petzl Quark, etc.). These have thinner B-rated picks, a less aggressive pick angle and a less curved shaft. That is, they're optimized for vertical ice.

Then, if you're going to start jumping on easy mixed routes, you can always throw some T-rated picks on your ice tools.

Once you get into harder mixed routes, you'll probably find yourself wanting Nomics (or Fusions or X-Dreams, etc.). These tools have the more burly T-rated picks, more handle positions and more aggressive angles that help with rock placements.

Now, if you want to know which brand or specific tool to buy, that's a more difficult question. I think the general consensus is to try out as many as you can or buy used for your first set. You'll most certainly decide you want something different after a few seasons.

Regarding adze vs. hammer, the first question is whether you'll be climbing in an alpine setting where an adze would be useful.

Personally, I don't like having a sharp edge on the back of my tool pointing at my face -- but I could see an argument for having one of each. Also, I find using even a BD Cobra hammer for even tent stakes to be awkward with the reverse curve of the shaft.

As you move to the more aggressive tools, the adzes and hammers either disappear or become increasingly useless with the increased curve.

Would using the Fusion style tools and carrying a piton hammer be more practical?

Or are those style of tools too aggressive for starting out?

William Kramer wrote:Would using the Fusion style tools and carrying a piton hammer be more practical? Or are those style of tools too aggressive for starting out?

Up to you. You can certainly go with a more mixed-style tool from the start, but it might take away some from the easy/fun factor on straight ice routes. The swing is pretty different.

I think a lot of folks might say to just buy Nomics now and save yourself from upgrading in a year or two years -- but they already know how to swing a tool and probably have no problem taking Nomics on waterfall ice.

With BD and Trango (someone else will have to chime in for Petzl) you could always buy the mixed-style tools and switch out the picks (to Laser picks on the BD).

What is the difference between the B and the T picks? From what I have read it's 2 degrees in the angle and thickness, but what is the real world difference?

Ideally, it's a tradeoff between durability and ice displacement. I actually prefer my picks to be thinner than most B picks, but I'm lighter than most climbers.

Can you just borrow tools for a while? It'll save you from having to sell a pair in a few months. I know many people who decided on a tool based on the specs and found out that they just didn't like the feel.

William Kramer wrote:What is the difference between the B and the T picks? From what I have read it's 2 degrees in the angle and thickness, but what is the real world difference?

Yeah, B vs. T should just relate to thickness as far as I know. B picks should displace less ice and, therefore, place in pure ice better. T picks are thicker, therefore more durable.

But I'm 185 lbs without winter gear, so I don't think B picks are wise for me if any mixed climbing might happen. I remember hearing Marc Beverly say that he had to get custom, thicker Krukonogi (armor steel) picks for Ice Climbing World Cup competition, because he was breaking the standard dry tooling picks they make. He's in the same weight range as me.

More significantly, though, is the angle of the pick. (Not related to the B/T rating, AFAIK.) The angle depends on your intended use.

Using the BD example, I believe the Laser (B) and Titan (T) picks have the same "ice" angle. I bent a Laser pick pretty nicely the first time I tried to go mixed climbing with those tools. Switched to Titan picks thereafter.

The angle on the standard Fusion picks vs. the Laser/Titan picks is more aggressive, however, which is why I suggested something like a Fusion tool with an ice pick. (Sticking to BD for example's sake.) It looks like BD makes a Fusion specific "ice" pick for the Fusion tools now -- so you could get those and swap them out for ice climbs.

Trango Raptors are another mixed-style tool that comes with a standard T pick with an aggressive angle. Similar to BD, you can buy "ice" picks to swap in. Nomics come with a more ice friendly pick and you can buy a more aggressive dry tooling pick. I doubt either of these setups will be as easy in ice as a Cobra or Quark or X-All Mountain, though, even with the "ice" picks.

Honestly, though, the borrowing/renting first idea is a good suggestion -- unless you have money to burn. Or buy a used or economical pair of less aggressive tools for starters (Vipers, Quarks, X-All Mountains, Cobras, etc., in order of increasing expense). These are good alpine tools to have in your quiver in any regard. I wouldn't drop the $$$ on Cobras until you're 100% sure you want them.

One of the standard criticisms of the Nomics is the lack of a good spike at the bottom for plunging in alpine settings. I think an offset handle probably messes with plunging a bit, too, and that's not limited to the Nomics.

Thank you very much for all the info, very helpful. I am definitely going to try to rent/borrow for the season, I don't even have a clue as to what I'm really looking for in swing and feel or comfort, just wanted to go into it somewhat informed of options out there.

Also have noticed that the Cobras seem to be the only ones out there with carbon fiber shafts, is that because that is new or is aluminum superior?

Grivel has some incredible carbon fiber tools.
ems.com/product/index.jsp?p…

The sky is the limit when it comes to price, though. I don't think aluminum is superior, but it's certainly adequate and less expensive.

Edit: I can't get the link to work. You'll have to copy/paste.

I recommend trying out as many different types as possible this season from your friends/rentals. tools are a personal preference towards weight, swing, handle, distribution, etc.

The grivel monsters are probably one of the cheaper beginner type tools, you could probably find a pair for $150ish if you want to buy something now. but tryout different ones if you can. Even going to a gear store and swinging the different tools you can narrow down what feels good to you

Your best bet is to come down to the Ouray Ice Festival (or the Cody Ice Festival in WY) which are both early winter and you can demo just about every single ice tool on the US market at no cost whatsoever. That's an easy way to learn what you like and don't like.

Couple things to mention though: Don't stress out about a hammer. If you've never swung an axe, you probably won't be placing too many pins any time soon. That said, most people aren't climbing with adzes these days unless they're going to AK. There simply isn't much need for one in the lower 48.

B and T ratings are actually a measure of bending cycles a pick can withstand before breaking. Usually, but not always, this means a T pick will be thicker than an equivalent B pick from the same manufacturer. Any differences in pick angle are incidental. Pick angle is more important than B/T rating when it comes to how a toOl will function and what type of swing it requires. I prefer a less aggressive pick angle - that's why I just sold my Nomics. Couldn't get used to them over 2 seasons.

Grivel Quantum Tech is in my opinion, the finest pure ice tool on the market. Also a carbon fiber tool. 30% lighter than Cobras, smoother, more one-swing-sticks than anything else I've ever climbed on. Cassin X-Dreams come close, although I've only got about 5 pitches on the X Dreams. Steve House climbs super hard mixed routes with his Quantums, but most people I think generally don't.

I weigh 185 lbs naked (easily 205 in full winter kit) and have climbed routes up to WI5+ M8/9 and have never bent a pick. Doesn't mean that it can't happen, I just think fears of it are overblown. I used to climb on B picks but I was wearing through them too quickly ($$$) so I switched to T rated picks. I still have some ultra sharp B picks for days when the temps are low and the ice is brittle.

Also, great discussion on ice tools here:

mountainproject.com/v/petzl…

great info by Jon H

I use the Grivel Matrix Tech (wanted the Quantums but too expensive) for ice only

And I use Cassin X-Dreams for mixed and drytool

Thanks for those posts, and info on Cody and Ouray. How late into spring is the ice good to climb in Ouray?

You mentioned driving pins with the hammer end, enlighten my noobness please, all I know about ice protection are ice screws, v threads, and regular rock pro including pitons on mixed.

Also if someone could tell me about the really curved bars for crampons, don't remember what brand they were that I saw them for, they just piqued my curiosity

Pitons = pins

Sweet, thank you

I climbed at the Ouray Ice Park Feb 15th and it was melting out, but the park didn't close until March 30th, not sure how good of ice it was for March

We've had a very wet year though so hopefully it'll last longer, they try to keep it open as long as possible.

The ouray Ice Fest when you can demo tools this year is January 8th weekend

^^^The water levels in the backcountry have very little to do with the Park conditions. It all depends on the temp cycles during the day and overnight. It can get up to 50s during the day any month of the winter, it's no problem. The difference is the overnight temperatures. As long as it consistently drops below freezing overnight and as long as the sprinklers are going, the ice will be forming. The thing to watch out later in the season (March) is the overnight lows. If it's too warm for a long stretch, then it's kaput. Usually you can still climb well into the end of March or even early April at the south end of the Park where ice is lower angle (fatter so it feeds off itself or the snowmelt up above, plus it doesn't just fall off like the steeper icicles). Way less crowded too.

Good points doligo, thanks