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I Must Be Handicapped in Red Rock: I can't seem to find the red tees?
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By MJMobes
From The land of steady habits
Jun 14, 2012
modern man

vegas and st george are the center of soft ratings in North America.


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By c-ditty
Jun 15, 2012

I guess the inconsistency is what sucks. The nice thing about climbing in St. George is that 5.6 is a great starting point. Then 5.7 is a little more difficult. Then 5.8, then 5.9, then 5.10, then beyond. But who was talking about SG anyways?
Zion, which must be separated from St. George--and is, culturally, and otherwise, is also very consistently graded. Especially by the new crew who collectively put up dozens of (hard) routes every year. They call 5.8, 5.8. And it always feels 5.8. They had a council, and there it was decreed that they would do this for the rest of us: they took their egos out of grading. And they are some hard, wise mother fuckers. They know that they don't need to make people like me feel weak--everyone already knows that I am. Why must it be different here? Are you "people" so far away from being a newbie? Have you ever taught any "body" how to climb? Or are you so bad ass that you were taking whippers your first month and then magically started climbing 5.12--your girlfriends were probably sending 5.14 before they were women? You seem less evolved than the rest of us humans; and still being apelike can send anything. The rock here is much different than anywhere else, true. But still, there shouldn't be a calculean jump from 5.7 to 5.8, then to 5.6? All you bad asses can't even talk about this honestly--for fear you might lose your edge. So go, run off to Gold's Gym, or wherever it is you get so buff; go and get truly pumped. Then after your three days rest maybe you can send that new 5.12+ you've been practicing on. You are so buff, trad--sport man!

I'm gonna go dink around on a bushy 5.5. Hmph!!!


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By Zappatista
Jun 15, 2012
Book me, officer.

Ok, I got some ho-hos, twinkies, snickers ice cream bars...what should I feed the troll?


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By Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Jun 15, 2012
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after a day of cragging.

Have you considered that the rock there might be so different that some of it requires technique and sequences that you have not yet mastered? Is that completely inconceivable? Your "home crag" is always going to seem more friendly. The first time I moved from granite to nuttall sandstone I found myself cursing the guidebook and screaming "5.10a my hairy fucking ass, where the fuck are the feet!" Just because you're struggling on it, doesn't necessarily mean it's sandbagged. Sometimes a missed hold, or a missed sequence, or the use of friction that's not taken into account can make grades seem sandbagged. I haven't climbed anything west of the Miss, but everywhere I've been in the east on all different types of rock, I get my ass handed to me when I'm in a new venue, and on a new type of rock. Comes with the territory.

troll: fed.


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By Dow Williams
From Saint George, UT
Jun 15, 2012
Dow Williams, 2011

yes, definitly a bs post...always amazing how many take the bait...

that being said, it is always worth stating for the umpteenth time ..since you are all discussing it now..it is not about geographic location as much as it is about when? who? and the kind of climbing/rock involved.

When you know those things the grades are normally quite consistent....in St. George, Goss's routes are almost always soft and bolted to high heaven, Olevskys, almost always hard and more run out. Most modern FAer's in the desert i.e. Joe A and I in St. George or Zach and Joe F in Zion, do our best to keep things consistent. I only establish cracks myself. If I have to place a pro bolt either here or the Canadian Rockies, I will quit on the route at that point. Just my ethics, don't care about anybody else's nor imposing mine on anyone. Thus many of ours will require large racks, kind of a deterrent, but again, less folks is fine by me.

The Zion crowd who basically taught me how to climb crack are some of the most modest climbers I have ever met. It always amuses me when we go to Jtree and the surfer dudes try and talk climbing trash to these sandstone kings...then we watch them climb...amazing bs going on at crags like that. I am sure during the FA days, it was a good crew though. The Red Rock folks who did all that work in the 70's and 80's, some of the finer folks I have met. Like me, many of them were mountaineers/alpinists who became rock climbers later in life to save their backs. Every one of them I have met or befriended is tougher than nails. Think their routes are soft now? You should take your hammer, broom and sand free lungs up a virgin chossy FA in this region just to appreciate the conditions they faced. I mostly climb sandstone and limestone to avoid folks, but even I will admit the rock sucks compared to granite or basalt...thus the grades are all over the place. Such is life.


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By c-ditty
Jun 15, 2012

I prefer hoho's.
What does it mean to troll, anyways? Am I doing it right?
And yes, some pawn shops do take gear...
Where's the dirt-bag in you, son?
Find your inner dirt...


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By Zappatista
Jun 15, 2012
Book me, officer.

It's all on Misty's incredibly well-written and intentioned blog, I assure you.

Since this is devolving, let's hear it for....DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWW........WEEEEEEEEEEELLLLYUMS!

Hope you're well, amigo. Let's have a beer next time you roll through, maybe climb something unworthy of a web posting :)


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By Rob Fielding
From Las Vegas, NV
Jun 17, 2012
Third pillar of dana descent.

mobley wrote:
vegas and st george are the center of soft ratings in North America.


100% agreed. Softer than a treasure troll melting in butter... MmMmMmM


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By Zappatista
Jun 17, 2012
Book me, officer.

Amazing. You type exactly how you speak. Crack me up, mayne.

In connecticut the grades are so tough that no one's ever managed to break into 5th class-those 2nd class boulders are MEAN! I hear if you fall off them, there's always strong, supportive arms to soothe you.

---sent from a state that has lots of climbing, some of it diffIcult.


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By Colonel Mustard
From Reno, NV
Jun 17, 2012
Colonel Mustard

You are questioning ratings at Red Rock? I would hardly worry about that, the area is a yardstick for nothing.


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By John Hegyes
From Las Vegas, NV
Jun 17, 2012
South of Windy Peak

c-ditty wrote:
So..If you can't tell, I am a big pussy cat, what can I say? I've never fallen on gear, and hope I never do. So I just don't want to bail off a $100 piece of equipment someday because I refuse to send on a 5.4. And, since we're being honest, it seems that some local 5.6 ratings are way off, whilest others are right on the money, honey. (I've actually wondered if some of those old timers aren't out there spying on us, laughing as we struggle and curse, hang-dogging a 5.5--which is possible only in RR btw; I bet they're waiting to sneak up and steal our gear when we give up and go home, wherever home is.)

What routes are you talking about? Can you name a single Red Rock route - 5.6 or below - that is sandbagged?


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By Zappatista
Jun 18, 2012
Book me, officer.

Don't get trolled, late arriver.

Anyone know a good rock scrambling shoe for Red Ruckus?


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By Eric Fjellanger
Jun 18, 2012
Me on top of Chianti Spire

Man, Killis, if knowing stuff makes me gay, you are straight as an arrow.


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By Princess Mia
From Vail
Jun 19, 2012
Chillin' at City of Rocks

The Dread Pirate Killis wrote:
Ok, I got some ho-hos, twinkies, snickers ice cream bars...what should I feed the troll?


I am from the land of trolls and we were taught to be very careful with these elusive creatures. Of course it is a goof idea to feed them, but don't get them wet, especially not after midnight


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By JamesDegan
Jun 19, 2012

mobley wrote:
vegas and st george are the center of soft ratings in North America.


Agreed, I can't stand Vegas and its soft ratings. I'd rather go drink a 12 pack by myself than climb on the sandstone garbage. I never know when a foot will snap or piece will blow... I'll stick to the So Cal granite where the YDS system was created. Thank You.


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By Tyler Quesnel
Jun 19, 2012

I think every area has different grades. If you want to compare them, then compare to Yosemite, it is the Yosemite decimal system after all. Grades are just a guide line. I'm not an experienced trad climber but the difference between following a 5.9 and leading a 5.4 is tremendous. Unlike sport climbing, trad is mentally taxing in two dimensions, not just the climb but the gear placement. If you're not used to placing gear (like me) you will have to work just as hard on a 5.6 as on a 5.10 for an experienced leader. There's no way you can concentrate and making quality gear placement if you're worried about falling, and how can you not be worried about falling if you're not making quality gear placements!

Again, I'm mostly a sport climber, but whenever I go to a new area I find the easiest routes there and just work my way up. I have no shame climbing a 5.6 sport or 5.3 trad just to get a feel for the rock. I've never climbed in Zion, but I have been there a few times, even though it's similarly colored sandstone I can't imagine it's anything like Red Rock Canyon. Go romp some monster patinas and enjoy the super friction on less than vertical climbing!

Forget the grade and climb what you can and is fun. When you're comfortable with your gear work yourself up to a level where you might actually take a fall! Maybe that fear will help push you to climb harder!


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